Responses to How does PayPal protect me as a seller?

[ikeman56]

Dear Papal,

I had a customer say that I sold him a item that he received that wasn't what I describe. I have no idea why he filed the claim, since I put on my description that I will refund the money if the customer isn't happy. I have 100% feedback and I do everything I can to keep that status. I emailed the customer. Told him to send the item back and I will OK the refund, but told him to go thought me first. No responds to 4 email. I escalated the claim just like paypal instructed me and they refunded his money WITHOUT evidence of shipping the item back. NOT FAIR to a long time customer. I've sent 3 emails to the buyer via the email Paypal sent me with no responds. I find out from 2 other seller that the buyer is a con and will do this repeatedly till Paypal and the Seller stop trust him. HOW IS THAT FAIR!

Ike

Hello (seller),

After careful consideration of the evidence provided in the case detailed
below, we have completed our investigation and decided in favor of the
buyer. Under terms of our User Agreement, we have debited the following
amount from your PayPal account as a refund to the buyer: $91.95 USD

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Transaction Details
-----------------------------------


Buyer's name: (buyer)

Transaction ID: 74539407T07720022

Transaction date: Dec 7, 2010
Transaction amount: $91.95 USD
Your transaction ID: 4UE39029JD8826221
Case number: PP-001-171-965-011

Refund amount: $91.95 USD

[FTReparatio]

Agreed.

Please share if you have any suggestions.  I am checking out Forvm Ancient Coins  for an alternative auction site, but haven't made a decision yet.  As far as finding another payment processor, I have no idea.

[hdrider12001]

I would like to know how Paypal protects me as a seller when shipping by First Class International Mail? Given that there is no tracking number by shipping with this option, why does Ebay/Paypal even allow this option? I feel pressure to use this option because it is much cheaper  and most sellers in the catagory I sell in use this method of shipping. 9 times out of 10 a buyer will choose this method. My question is, since this option is a buyers choice, and since they are aware of the risks of it being shipped with no tracking #, why can't Paypal stand behind a seller in this case? I say, if a buyer chooses this option, they do so at their own risk!! I insure all International First Class packages by Auctiva, but it is useless unless the buyer sends me back signed insurance forms. Another question to Paypal-if the package is insured, why don't you insist the buyer sign and send back the insurance form. That way both buyer and seller get reimbursed!! Would love a reply back! Thanks

[PayPal_Olivia]

Hi hdrider12001, and welcome to the forums!

When a seller sells an item through PayPal, they're making a contract with both PayPal and the buyer that they will see to it that the item is delivered to the buyer, intact and as described. The seller makes the choices about how that delivery occurs. They select the shipping method and make a contract with that shipping company that the company will deliver the item on the seller's behalf, kind of like a delivery driver. Instead of it being a delivery driver who's an employee of the seller's company, it's a shipping company used as a contractor.

So basically, when you select a shipping option that does not offer delivery confirmation, you're opting to forgo the Seller Protection coverage. You could leave the choice up to the buyer and risk sacrificing your Seller Protection coverage, or you can offer only trackable shipping methods to ensure that your protection is available to you. That's a decision that's best made after weighing the potential impact of reversals against the potential impact of higher shipping costs.

After considering the risk versus the reward, some sellers opt to offer the cheaper shipping to encourage sales, and factor in the probability of occasional loss on the back end. On the other hand, some sellers choose to only offer shipping options that include tracking, and build that cost in to the sale price. These are individual decisions a business owner makes, along with all the other business decisions - what to sell, where to sell it, how much to charge, how much inventory to keep, where to keep it, etc..

Insurance is another one of those decisions that's up to the seller. You can decide to require it and build it into the cost, or offer it to buyers who want it, or forgo it entirely. When it comes down to it, the protection is actually for the seller, not the buyer, in case something happens to prevent your item from safely reaching your buyer. It's certainly a great idea, but not something that PayPal requires.

I hope this helps!

Olivia

[aussie119]

I wonder if I need new glasses, but to seem quite evident that Paypal overall are favoring the buyers, instead of the sellers?

We have an open case against a newbie from Brazil who in our opinion is milking the system. It seems to us the Paypal is "rolling over" with these perps and  shysters.

Can Paypal be easily duped with constant name/account changers?

[PayPal_Adrian]

Dognessy -

So, looking at your post, I understand you shipped the item to the buyer.  You have proof it has been shipped (proof of shipment). 

Can you prove the buyer received the item with online tracking (proof of delivery)?

That's the requirement for PayPal to cover your loss under the terms of our Seller Protection Policy.  In many instances with the Seller Protection Policy, the seller keeps the money, and so does the buyer.  PayPal actually does take that loss, just as you are suggesting we do.

I understand that you feel you shouldn't be held liable for a package that the buyer never received.  Why is the seller responsible to refund if they can't prove the buyer has the item?  There's a number of great reasons why the claims process and the Seller Protection Policy works this way. 

Outside of the internet, as a business who isn't using a shipper, you would have a delivery driver.  If your delivery driver loses the package, you would have to take it up with your delivery driver - and a refund would still be due to the buyer. 

Once you choose to use a third party shipper, the shipper takes the place of your delivery driver.  If the service you have contracted loses, destroys, or otherwise fails to complete their service, that becomes an issue between yourself and the shipping company - but not the buyer.  The buyer should be refunded and left out of the dispute between yourself and your contractor, and the contractor should then reimburse you for your loss.

This is part of the reason why we recommend that sellers either require insurance or always insure their packages and purchase online tracking, rather than provide their buyers the option to make a decision regarding what risks and losses their business is willing to take.  In the end, it's your bottom line that is at stake.  If your contractor doesn't deliver, you want to take that up with them, refund the buyer and make them happy, and then you can also potentially earn a repeat customer in the process. 

There are other reasons why you would want the PayPal payment refunded as well.  If the buyer later takes the dispute up outside of PayPal - whether it be via their card issuer, their bank, or even in a legal fashion - you would find yourself hard pressed to defend the right to keep the payment without proof that the item is delivered.  Each of these methods can result in a longer dispute period and greater costs to you as the merchant, and in the mean time, your time period to file an insurance claim with the shipper may have elapsed.  In the end, you could find yourself taking a greater loss as a merchant.

Refunding the buyer and sorting it out with the shipper becomes the best option, then, as a seller, and that's what the claims processed is designed to do - make the best decision for everyone involved. 

Adrian

[Dognessy]

Dognessy -

So, looking at your post, I understand you shipped the item to the buyer.  You have proof it has been shipped (proof of shipment). 

Can you prove the buyer received the item with online tracking (proof of delivery)?

That's the requirement for PayPal to cover your loss under the terms of our Seller Protection Policy.  In many instances with the Seller Protection Policy, the seller keeps the money, and so does the buyer.  PayPal actually does take that loss, just as you are suggesting we do.

If I had that proof I'd provide it!

Be realistic! I sent a CD to Europe. To get "proof of delivery", I'd had to pay $30 at least! WHo'd pay for that? Me? Or the buyer?

Please, stop parroting the same thing again and again! We know your "rules", and this is exactly we complain about!

"That's the requirement for PayPal to cover your loss under the terms of our Seller Protection Policy"

Do I have problem with English?

You say seller must cover his loss under the Seller PROTECTION Policy....

So, where is your PROTECTION?

Explain to us in plain English!

"PayPal actually does take that loss, just as you are suggesting we do."

REALLY? How?

1) PayPal took MY money the seller paid to me and then gave it to the buyer.

2) And PayPall before charged me for paying via PayPal.

Explain to us where did PayPal take loss in my case?????

"In many instances with the Seller Protection Policy, the seller keeps the money, and so does the buyer."

With all my respect, I don't belive you. Any examples?

It had to happen with my case! The postal service outside US lost the item, and you charged ... ME!

[wpd121]

Excellent response, it sounds like they are readying from a script and can not think for themselves.  That would explain them parroting the same comments over and over all the time.  The only thing Palpal protects is their pocketbook.  I would love to see a mass exodus from Paypal and see it shut down.  They are actively profiting from criminal acts and I firmly believe they should be criminal charged and fined for their part in it.  After all, the federal RICO statue has been used against the debt collectors and Paypal is no better then them.

[Grimmware1]

Paypal has not  protected me as a seller,   they believe what the buyer says   once you buy something there should be no money returns to the buyer,   until the seller gets back the merchandise,  I am tired of giving away free stuff  because pay pal  is doing this all wrong  in their protection to buyers  Paypal doesn't care if the buyer never gets  back the merchandise,   as long as they get their fees   and how can paypal  know what is in the hands of a buyers  unless they go directly to their house    

[Borborygm]

Found out something interesting... you can protect yourself as a seller when using pp on ebay:

http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2716225

Read the first two posts, it can save you tons of cash in the future and you won't even have to post anything here because they won't be legally allowed to dip into your account.

Sorry you haven't heard much from me in the past 24 hrs, mods. I took it upon myself to track down[LexxisNexis/Accurint is full of win] your entire board of execs and some project managers that have degrees relating to my case. They are much more helpful and get things done. I understand the role you have to play and that you are handicapped by that role. Scott is mean but his secretaries are nice. Mr wang will get a bbm shortly. Peace.

[SpawnedGSX]

"How does PayPal protect me as a Seller?"

LOL! The real answer is they don't. Look at how hard their corporate puppets are trying to suggest you just bend over and take it by refunding the buyer no matter what. It's all a ruse, and that is why I will continue to punish PayPal in court, including interest, time lost, court costs and everything else that can be piled on top of it.

All PayPal does is let you the seller stand in the rain after they took money from your pockets and allowed a buyer to send you back a completely different item or the item you sent them that they damaged in their negligence. I could literally type "yabba dabba doo" in the reason field for opening a dispute against a seller and 400 days later they will side with me.

The truth is, PayPal is legally negligent in their investigations. Did you know that they won't even review e-mail or private message evidence, no matter what it says? Why? Because it could be altered, they are calling you a liar is what they are doing. Instead of contact the forum or the site in which the deal happened on to confirm the legitimacy of the evidence you submit, they just write it off as something that may or may not be altered so it has no weight on your case. This isn't me just making this up, this was basically verbatum of what I was told by a PayPal associate on a recorded line when I called in about my case.

The real claim process? They let you think your comments matter, but they don't, then they make you sit for a month for a decision hoping that in that timeframe you will just get fed up with the wait and agree to refund and take the item back. For the few who stick to their guns they have, what I bet is an automated algorhythm, just set the claim to in the buyer's favor and let the automated process go on.

The company is a sham and a joke. Do yourself a favor, don't ask these corporate jokes on this forum for advice, they get paid to convince you to just give a refund and take it deep in the rear. When you know you are right, just let the time come for them to make a decision, in the buyer's favor of course, and then sue them for negligence, and the buyer for fraud. This increases PayPal's upkeep, which takes from their bottom line and punishes the scum buyer. When it happens enough, this company will sink like the Titanic and the sheisty buyers will have no recourse to scam you with anymore.