Yes, you're right, there are a lot of scams on e-bay. But if you read the NYTimes Business section, or Forbes, or other business papers, you might recognise that PayPal, as a micro-economic escrow site has been the largest target of scammers who have successfully copied their e-mails, their demands for payment, and other items. In fact, other portions of this board (not necessarily THIS line of discussion) but many others are "Is this email for real?" "Is this really from PayPal? and in 98% of those questions from people who might be relatively new - the answer is no. They've been scammed,and they're not getting their money back - becaise PayPal is not an investigative site, they don't have the means to go after every scammer, and in any case, even if they reached the scammers - the scammers are sudenly going to feel remorse and say "Sorry, here's your funds/item back." No. It PayPal who has been the largest target, it's been noted in all the financial papers that the sophistication of the people trying to go after people using the PayPal logo is not some poor photoshop copy anymore. And it's ENORMOUS. So, yeah, PayPal instated a 21 day hold - to make sure a process is legal - and then they release your funds. And as I've stated before it S**** like a HOOVER VACUUM, but there is a reality out there; a new reality, and it's the proce of doing business RIGHT NOW, until they can figure out some better security procedures. Nowhere do they state that this is a NEW FOREVER policy. It's new now, as they try to deal with an onslaught that is ferocious and at the point of closing them down. Because how are they supposed to make their money if 1 of 2 transactions is bogus? They're out the credit card processing fee they pay on every transaction, mostly, because they DO work with customers who bring the right paparwork to the Customer Service Center and try to give them their money back. But - you being big on business and all - you tell me: Where does PayPal get their money to keep open and as a legitimate escrow source? They had to do something, so this is the temporary step = FOR NOW. And Visa protects your purchses (if you have a certain kind of account) and so does American Express, and Master Card - but they don't give it to you just because you say: WAH! You have to prove it to them. And they're losing money too. I predict a radical change in the personal financial markets VERY soon. When eBay gets involved with our money, it shows up via Paypal, or hadn't you noticed that yet. If you speak to a person, sure. If you just log a dispute, no, it doesn't. And don't belittle my participation. I'm very aware of MY financial situatuion, to the point of panic. Want to know the reason I came to these boards in the first place? I've been a member of Paypal for almost 10 years; I called them up with a questionable charge that i didn't recognize. They fixed it for me immmediately. I came to these boards to THANK PayPal for being the kind of vendor who worked with their customers, as they did with me, once they could see that my card number had been corrupted and not used by me (actually had someone else's account notation on it, which helped in rectifying the situation). After ten years, they still trated me with respect, came to my immediate aid, and helped me fix a hinky charge. I stayed because I saw an opportunity to help other users like me who might have questions - and I'll fully admit when I don't have the answer and hape that someone else will come on by and be able to assist with that aspect of the question/problem, but mainly, I tell people how to contact Customer Support with their WEB PIN so they can get directly to the people who can help them best. That's my schtick. I got involved in THIS dialogue (such as it is) because I saw people casting aspersions that weren't true, and thought I could point them in the right direction. Spent a lot of time in the T&C of both companies to make sure I knew exacly what I was talking about before I posted. So, your suggestion that i am ignorant, or blind or stupid - not only unfounded, but personal attacks that are completely unfounded. I'd ask for an apology but that would just be wind in the air, I'd guess. I want to congratulate you on being such a financially independent small seller that you can invest in other inventory to sell even when you have not been paid for the last 30 days of inventory you have just sold, that you have the funds to ship multiple pieces of furniture with shipping of over $100 and up to $275 and not touch the money on hold in Paypal. Frankly, if I could do that, I would have a brick and mortar store. I depend on my income to create more income, or hadn't you heard that is the way it works?? Why gee, no, I had no idea that was the way eBay works. But since this isn't an eBay forum, I won't touch it. And, NO, I did NOT AGREE to Paypal holding my income for this period of time. This was not the original deal, so I am expressing my not agreeing here, although with eBay and Paypal, it simply is a waste of my time because they are intent on doing what they want to do...and you are still falling for "they need to protect themselves"?? You sound like a buyer with the crap you are saying about how much they do to make things right for you. HA! For buyers, YES, to the point of allowing buyers to make false claims without investigation into the claim before action is taken negatively by Paypal against the seller. Ah, YES, you DID agree to it; there are updates to the T&C all the time - there's a notation in your PayPal account when you sign in about an update. Go ahead, it's on the right of the page, top item of the PayPal dashboard when you sign in. If you disagreed with it, that was your time to do so. Unlike credit card compaies, they are not beholden to send out Printed updates to their T&C, and likely there was a page TELLING you about the update (I saw one and clicked off on it), so don't compalin because you didn't read what you should have. Have you Looked at the Legal Agreement's page? And the updates page that GOES BACK TO 2007? You clicked off on every one of those agreements, and by continuing to use PayPal, signified your agreements to those terms. Sorry you're not educated about business practices enough to understand your actions, but that's exactly what you did. If you don't LIKE those likely temporary procedures, then you are free to use another form of payment or another venue of selling, not the eBay has anything to do with PayPal's practices, but you seem unable to distinguish between the two, so rather than bring your vitriol, bitterness and anger -which, if I were a new eBay member - would scare the **bleep** out of me and scare me away from you as a seller for fear you'd take your anger out on the business practices of a different company on me. Not good for your business. Why risk it?? New people read these discussions and see what kind of person you are by the kind of post you make. You'd make me not want to do business with you, no matter how fabulous your furniture. And no, I didn't go to eBay to look YOU up and make disparaging remarks - as we are about to see you did. Nice to know I'll have to change my eBay name for fear of repercussion by a bitter poster. You said: although they do the best job of working with you to get your money back and making sure you get your stuff and your money. YES, this definitely sounds like a buyer more than a seller. "get your stuff AND your money" hmm, that is what some buyers do...get their "stuff and their money" and it is not because Paypal dictates what goes to an eBayer. It is eBay, and they do that via Paypal. Get your stuff and get your money is contrary to what you think, a catchall phrase meaning protection for buyers AND sellers. Think sellers are the only ones getting ripped off? Rather narrow minded and shows exactly WHY you don't understand these pratices have been put in place in the first place. And I'm tired of telling you about TWO DISTINCT COMPANIES. If you can't get it in your head, than no one can help you, and you'll just be bitter and peeved no matter what ANYONE says. Revel in that anger, I guess. It won't do your body any good, nor your disposition, nor your business. So, yeah - best of luck with that, and all. You really don't get it, do you?? Am I showing you in the LEAST that I do, or are you just going to continue to put up straw men and attack me personally? Because,, yeah, I DO get it, and I've stated before I know it VACUUMS LIKE A HOOOVER, but you won't accept that I know it's a pain, and I know that it makes things harder on you and other sellers, you're just wrapped up in trying to prove that *I* don't know what I'm talking about even though *I* provide links and evidence, and you attack and make it personal. I'm your nemesis here? Great, make ME the bad guy, if that helps you in any way. I'll just keep trying to HELP people, you just attack them personally. Great to know your board participation is that limited. You also said: And why wouldn't you contact the Selller first if you were having a problem? you'd just go to eBay because it was your "duty"? That's a little weird. I'd try and resolve it with the person I was having the problem with, not the least of all but to also create a better, longer, more documented paper-trail that would help me if I did have to go down the dispute resolution trail....... Are you still addressing my comment because I completely agree that a buyer should go directly to the seller first. "You are a bit weird since no way would I, who knows better, go straighth to eBay. That is the newbies you are talking about, the ones who do feel they have this "duty", "obligation", whatever you want to call it to report negatively ANYTHING they may THINK they do not see as the way they would do it themselves...and what about (as long as you brought up the subject) the buyers who "decide" that they "think" the shipping is too high, even if they knew what it was before they bought, even though they can read it on the shipping label (my labels always have the shipping showing, the exact shipping, and do you know that some buyers are so lacking in intelligence, they must think I paid less than the label states since they leave less than a 5.0 on shipping cost? Now, that is just plain ignorant !! Based on what you have said, you are apparently more of a buyer than a seller and not so great a buyer at that. I have been here EIGHT years, and during that time I have never gone down a long dispute resolution trail because I do the right thing. I have been attacked with disputes by stupid buyers who have no idea I can prove I did ship their item and that it did arrive at their address. I don't need long paper trails since I, as a longtime EXCELLENT seller on eBay, always do the right thing, but I don't always sell to the right people. Burn me once and you are banned from bidding on or buying anything from me. So, why are we talking about eBay here if you said this has nothing to do with eBay?" Wow, a whole paragraph attacking ME, instead of dealing with anything productive. Congratulations for being in business for EIGHT years. That's a testament to a very good, sound business model. And wow, super good for you that you never have to provide any evidence to anyone to resolve a dispute in your favor because you are a SUPER SELLER. Which I don't quite believe since you have to have the evidence that it was delivered, they signed for it, etc. That IS called a paper-trail, and it is what is required in any dispute resolution, for EITHER COMPANY. Why do you insist on fighting ME over the most basic of things??? But, your paragraph does show your contempt for your buyers, which I find odd. You need them for your business, but you obviously think they're stupid because you got less than stellar feedback over something. In all my dealings with Sellers or Buyers on eBay, I had terrific contact with the other person thorughout the transaction, and encouraged them to contact me at any time if they were haveing a problem or if something came up, or if they needed something. Contact and the willingness to work with people has always benefited me on both sides of the transaction. Continues
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