HORRIBLE IDEA TO HOLD FUNDS FOR 21 DAYS!!!

[gearhed78]

  Holding funds from sellers until the buyer leaves feedback is the worst idea EVER! Since when does Paypal become an authority on buyer satisfaction?? A smooth transaction is all that I wanted from Paypal. If they are going to hold funds, then they should make it very clear BEFORE you use them!  Keeping my money in their account for 21 days is a HUGE disadvantage of using Paypal. Stick to transferring funds,not trying to be a satisfaction authority!

[Sparklements]

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@Raveninred wrote:

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@readuseragreeme wrote:

Raven that was a great post thank you. 

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S'anks. Trying to keep m'cool, but it's killin me. 

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Oh you poor thing...yeah we stupid customers coming here to complain have NO IDEA what its like to be angry and frustrated...don't worry, that Liveworld paycheck should make it all better.

[terese2]

Interesting post, Sparklements!  

Doesn't take much reading to realize the level of dissatisfaction felt by the real victims of Paypal policies--Ebay sellers--who are having THEIR money appropriated by Paypal for an outrageous period!  Does anyone know a BANK that holds money for 21 days??  I dare say they would be out of business!

Gee, maybe that is where PAypal needs to be???

[Productpushers]

I totally agree with you.  I honestly think the REAL reason paypal wants to hold the money is because they're collecting interest on all us morons that just let them hold our money for 21 days.  As soon as they start holding my money on 23 July I'm immediately closing my account.

[readuseragreeme]

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@Sparklements wrote:

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@Raveninred wrote:

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@readuseragreeme wrote:

Raven that was a great post thank you. 

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S'anks. Trying to keep m'cool, but it's killin me. 

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Oh you poor thing...yeah we stupid customers coming here to complain have NO IDEA what its like to be angry and frustrated...don't worry, that Liveworld paycheck should make it all better.

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Your conspiracy theories keep the forums interesting. 

[7yearseller]

Buyers who pay with a credit card can go to their credit card company just like they would if they purchased on the Internet from a site not offering Paypal.

eBay is supposed to be a venue for selling, not a critic and controller of everything that goes on here.

If a seller has an active checking account in good standing and a credit card backing them up, and all is in good standing, what is the purpose of "double duty" by Paypal in holding our funds? 

Sellers who are scammers are short-lived on eBay, and their accounts can be closed at anytime by eBay without hesitation.

Buyers who are scammers are not so easily removed by eBay because, if you did read all of the information you point out, most is in the buyers' favor. On eBay, sellers are guilty until proven innocent, and it is very difficult for that to happen. Even if we are, if you will read that which you point out so fervently, you will see it is next to impossible to have anything negative removed from the sellers' history with eBay and/or feedback.

So, again, please tell me why it is that it is not sufficient for the person who feels scammed (usually a buyer with little experience who feels it is his/her "duty" to report all to eBay and not contact the seller first...why is it not sufficient for that person to simply contact their credit card company and resolve the matter? The ONLY reason I can see is again GREED by eBay/Paypal. Give this some consideration: The hundreds of thousands or even millions of sellers who are now having their funds held for a total of 24 days (21 and the 3 allowed to buyers to file a claim)....Even if eBay/Paypal earned only 1 PERCENT on those funds for 30 days, which they would be foolish not to, LOOK at how much $$$$$ they are earning from our funds that are on HOLD....So, get real, and don't think for one minute it is about how much is scammed from Paypal. You really don't think Paypal allows that to happen do you? You really don't think that somehow if Paypal is going lose anything they don't make sure someone else pays??? Do you not think that eBay/Paypal has their vast sources of income protected by insurance?

Sorry to tell you this, but there is a lot more than meets the eye in business. If you are a seller on eBay and you don't agree you are not always treated right, then you need to have a few challenges with them, read that fine print and see why you will always be the one on the lower end of the deal.

The eBayers who care about the HOLDs are the smaller sellers and some who may sell a lot more but people who invest in items to re-sell. The reason we sell here to begin with is so we don't have to invest more monies than we have. Most do not have the funds to invest in a month's supply of items to sell without receiving a return before 30 days...As a "business person who so carefully reads everything (don't know where you find the time if you are taking photos, editing, listing, shipping, etc) then you should know the longer the turnaround time on a return on investment, the lower the profit.

Refute that !

EBay has simply bogged themselves and us down with too much to keep up with. We are not employees of eBay, so we should not be tied to their S.O.P. "Manuel". However, eBay does treat us as employees since we have to abide by everything little thing they say and still it is not truly fair in the way it is handled for sellers mostly.

[Raveninred]

One: This isn't ebay.

No - that's it. This isn't e-bay. This is PayPal. PayPal has their OWN Terms and Conditions (which you still haven't read, obviously).

e-Bay has their own system. All I am doing is addressing PayPal's Terms and Conditions which you agreed to. If you have a problem with e-Bay, take it up with eBay and on their boards.

And I'm not saying I don't commiserate - I have repeatedly said over and over it HOOVERS LIKE A VACUUM, but PayPal has to protect themselves.

And e-Bay offers other sources of payment than just PayPal so its not a monopoly, although they do the best job of  working with you to get your money back and making sure you get your stuff and your money.

PayPal can't change anything eBay does about feedback or anything; if a dispute is opened with PayPal, PayPal can address the situation. If you choose to solely deal with eBay in a dispute, then you have to abide with what e-bay decides. If you can get a good resoultion with PayPal, then you can talk with e-bay and give them proof of the outcome of a resolution and get things changed - been there, done that.

I'm not talking out of my hat, here, and I'm not anyone's employee, I'm just someone who believes in due diligence, and I am a small time seller/buyer myself. I'm no big time merchant.

Ebay has no control over being  what was it "not a critic and controller of everything that goes on here." They're not involved with ANYTHING here. These are PayPal's assistance boards. They don't have anything to do with the outcome of a dispute if you go through PayPal. I don't know why you're confusing the two. I understand you're upset, but don't think that apples and limes are the same thing.

And why wouldn't you contact the Selller first if you were having a problem? you'd just go to eBay because it was your "duty"? That's a little weird. I'd try and resolve it with the person I was having the problem with, not the least of all but to also create a better, longer, more documented paper-trail that would help me if I did have to go down the dispute resolution trail.

And stop saying e-bay/PayPal - they are NOT the same company. They may be owned by the same PARENT company, but that doesn't mean Steve over at e-bay knows diddly about what happens over at PayPal either on a daily, weekly, monthly or whatever basis. They are separate entities owned by a Parent company. That Parent company OBVIOSULY runs them as separate entities, because they have different rules and regulations.

Just what is it you're fighting against here?

[7yearseller]

I am fighting for the right to use the money paid to me through transactions made in eBay or anywhere for that matter, the money that ends up in Paypal. Most of us here are eBay sellers, so the sale of an item on eBay goes to Paypal, and Paypal is affecting my ability to have the funds to ship my items, money sent to me by a buyer.

You may not think Paypal/eBay, but for most of us, it is just that. Why do you think eBay bought Paypal other than for the percentages they receive from all buyers over the Internet including eBay? Basically, on this site we are on now, the people affected are eBay sellers. Do you see complaints from anyone else other than eBay sellers?

If YOU would look in the information that EBAY has, it relates to Paypal and why funds would be held. Now, you are trying to say one does not have to do with the other? Certainly they were and are individual businesses, but they are intertwined to the extent that (as stated before) eBay has on the eBay site the Paypal information. So, you tell me how they are not intertwined, how this is not something directed more at the eBay seller. Do you really think that big businesses who accept Paypal online are having their hundreds of thousands of dollars paid through Paypal on hold? I don't think so. That's a very good way for Paypal to lose business.

First Paypal was online as a way to pay for purchases. Then eBay purchased Paypal. Then eBay required if we were going to use Paypal that we "advertise" it by placing the Paypal logo on our auctions. Hmm, why do we put Paypal and not the other electronic payment companies on our EBAY AUCTION if eBay is not promoting and wanting us to use Paypal, and by virtue of the fact that they (being eBay) limit us to "their choice" of electronic payments, what is it you don't see about the connection between eBay and Paypal. BTW, have you looked to see who owns the other 'payment options' the EBAY SELLERS are allowed??

You have to be blind not to see the connection. When I use my Visa on a site and not Paypal, that money goes to the seller site and is shown as a purchase by me and that company I bought from has my funds almost immediately. Scam, you say? I don't see any of the card companies holding funds to protect themselves from scams. Unfortunately, because we are focused on eBay as a primiary source of our online income, there probably are a lot of scams, so why is it (if it is not because of the scamming tried on the ebay site) that Paypal has to HOLD our funds especially when the buyers Visa, Mastercard, whatever will help that buyer if there is a problem. When eBay gets involved with our money, it shows up via Paypal, or hadn't you noticed that yet.

I want to congratulate you on being such a financially independent small seller that you can invest in other inventory to sell even when you have not been paid for the last 30 days of inventory you have just sold, that you have the funds to ship multiple pieces of furniture with shipping of over $100 and up to $275 and not touch the money on hold in Paypal. Frankly, if I could do that, I would have a brick and mortar store. I depend on my income to create more income, or hadn't you heard that is the way it works??

And, NO, I did NOT AGREE to Paypal holding my income for this period of time. This was not the original deal, so I am expressing my not agreeing here, although with eBay and Paypal, it simply is a waste of my time because they are intent on doing what they want to do...and you are still falling for "they need to protect themselves"?? You sound like a buyer with the crap you are saying about how much they do to make things right for you. HA! For buyers, YES, to the point of allowing buyers to make false claims without investigation into the claim before action is taken negatively by Paypal against the seller.

You said:   although they do the best job of  working with you to get your money back and making sure you get your stuff and your money.   YES, this definitely sounds like a buyer more than a seller. "get your stuff AND your money" hmm, that is what some buyers do...get their "stuff and their money" and it is not because Paypal dictates what goes to an eBayer. It is eBay, and they do that via Paypal.

You really don't get it, do you??

You also said: 

And why wouldn't you contact the Selller first if you were having a problem? you'd just go to eBay because it was your "duty"? That's a little weird. I'd try and resolve it with the person I was having the problem with, not the least of all but to also create a better, longer, more documented paper-trail that would help me if I did have to go down the dispute resolution trail.......

Are you still addressing my comment because I completely agree that a buyer should go directly to the seller first. You are a bit weird since no way would I, who knows better, go straighth to eBay. That is the newbies you are talking about, the ones who do feel they have this "duty", "obligation", whatever you want to call it to report negatively ANYTHING they may THINK they do not see as the way they would do it themselves...and what about (as long as you brought up the subject) the buyers who "decide" that they "think" the shipping is too high, even if they knew what it was before they bought, even though they can read it on the shipping label (my labels always have the shipping showing, the exact shipping, and do you know that some buyers are so lacking in intelligence, they must think I paid less than the label states since they leave less than a 5.0 on shipping cost? Now, that is just plain ignorant !!  Based on what you have said, you are apparently more of a buyer than a seller and not so great a buyer at that. I have been here EIGHT years, and during that time I have never gone down a long dispute resolution trail because I do the right thing. I have been attacked with disputes by stupid buyers who have no idea I can prove I did ship their item and that it did arrive at their address. I don't need long paper trails since I, as a longtime EXCELLENT seller on eBay, always do the right thing, but I don't always sell to the right people. Burn me once and you are banned from bidding on or buying anything from me. So, why are we talking about eBay here if you said this has nothing to do with eBay?

You sound like a female seller who buys more than she sells, one who spends more time in chat rooms discussing not exactly what you have longtime experience in.

Bottom line, you don't have eBay without being involved with Paypal as the payment method IF you have been around a while. Once we could take checks, money orders, cashiers checks, and that was fair  BECAUSE eBAY is ONLY A SELLING VENUE...and at that time, it was a good venue, less than opening a brick and mortar store, and we could sell when we wanted to and at what price we wanted to just like if we owned a brick and mortar store. We could close. We could go on vacation. BUT, now, as eBAY clearly shows in our DSR information, if there is a spike in our sales (which, BTW, would happen if we are coming off vacation), then surely there must be something amiss, so let's HOLD their funds through Paypal. READ THAT PLEASE, since you seem to be so well versed in what eBay has to say...and it DOES lead to holding funds on Paypal, so PULEEZE, do not think they are not working hand-in-hand.

And, if I am FIGHTING, it is against those like you who think they know it all. When is a duck a duck? When it walks and talks and quacks like one?  So, when is eBay and Paypal the same??? When eBay refers to how funds come to be held in the first place.....and how that can be changed, and they do it on eBAY, that is when the eBay duck and the Paypal duck come together and it is not so pretty for the outcome of sellers, UNLIKE YOU, who do not have the money for their income paid to them via electronic payment to be held for what amounts to 30 days. We depend on that income, and yes it is OURS when we have backed up our EBAY and PAYPAL with a credit card and a checking account for them to "withdraw" funds from arbitrarilary.

So, how much have you sold lately and used other funds than those paid to you for the items you pay to ship without first having been allowed to use that money?? My guess is NOT a THING or so little you can pay the 7. to ship. I can do that, too, but furniture just won't ship so inexpensively. I could tell from what eBay has in their "information", they want us to only use UPS, USPS and now we are "allowed" to use FedEx, but that is something that although they say it is okay, using FedEx, when eBay can't "SEE" who, what, why, when, where, that will affect our DSRs, or do you even know what the meaning is of the DSRs?? Of course, that has nothing to do with Paypal and their hold on money, does it???

I can go on and on about lack of insight and experience lacking...Why are you so blind???

THE COMPLETE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT PAYPAL IS EARNING BIG BUCKS ON ON A MINISCULE PERCENTAGE OF INTEREST BY HOLDING OUR FUNDS. MULTIPLY BY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OR MILLIONS OF SELLERS ON EBAY ALONE AND THEY ARE MAKING A SMALL FORTUNE..WHY DO I THINK THEY DID THIS OTHER THAN JUST PLAIN GREED?? NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE WOULD OPEN A MONEY MARKET WITH THEM ! WHAT IDIOT WOULD GIVE PAYPAL MORE FINANCIAL INFORMATION AND POWER THAN THEY NEED TO HAVE OR TO KNOW??? NOT MANY, SO LET'S HAVE A BOARD MEETING TO HOLD FUNDS WHICH ..OH, BTW, COINCIDES WITH EBAY NOW CHARGING A FINAL VALUE FEE ON OUR SHIPPING AS WELL.  MORE MONEY FOR BOTH SIDES OF THE TABLE, SO TO SPEAK..

READ UP ON ALL THE INFORMATION BEFORE YOU COME IN HERE SOUNDING LIKE A WIMP WHO JUST 'GOES ALONG' WITH WHAT "BIG BROTHER" DISHES OUT WITHOUT A SINGLE PEEP OF A COMPLAINT. THEY, BEING EBAY, GAVE US A VENUE THAT SOUNDED SO GREAT, AND YEAR BY YEAR THEY HAVE DONE SOMETHING TO TAKE THAT SATISFACTION FROM US AND ALSO MORE AND MORE OF OUR INCOME....AND NOW SINCE THEY 'JUST' DECIDED TO CHARGE THAT HIGH PERCENTAGE TO INCLUDE CHARGING IT ON SHIPPING, TOO, THEY HAVE BEEN IN THE DOG HOUSE ENOUGH FOR THIS YEAR...SO LET'S PUT IT ON PAYPAY, GUYS...PAYPAL HASN'T DONE ANYTHING THIS YEAR TO HURT THE SELLERS, SO LET'S PUT IT ON THEIR BACK AND GET THE ATTENTION AWAY FROM US PRETENDING WE (EBAY) ARE CHARGING ON THE SHIPPING NOW BECAUSE WE FEEL IT WILL LOWER THE SHIPPING. HOGWASH!!   IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT THE BOTTOM LINE. OR HAVEN'T YOU NOTICED THAT SALES HAVE DROPPED FOR EBAY DURING THIS BOHAMA MAMA ADMINISTRATION????

[Raveninred]

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@7yearseller wrote:

I am fighting for the right to use the money paid to me through transactions made in eBay or anywhere for that matter, the money that ends up in Paypal. Most of us here are eBay sellers, so the sale of an item on eBay goes to Paypal, and Paypal is affecting my ability to have the funds to ship my items, money sent to me by a buyer.

You may not think Paypal/eBay, but for most of us, it is just that. Why do you think eBay bought Paypal other than for the percentages they receive from all buyers over the Internet including eBay? Basically, on this site we are on now, the people affected are eBay sellers. Do you see complaints from anyone else other than eBay sellers?

Then perhaps you should address the problems with e-bay's Terms and Conditions and find out where the ones there and the ones at Paypal differ, because I assure you, they do. You feel personally attacked; all I am trying to do is point out that you are not. There are rules of business, if you're not aware of them, then the onus is on you. And NIce sneaking thuis post in the middle of other older answered posts because you felt the need to go on the PERSONAL attack against me. We see that again later in your "post".

If YOU would look in the information that EBAY has, it relates to Paypal and why funds would be held. Now, you are trying to say one does not have to do with the other? Certainly they were and are individual businesses, but they are intertwined to the extent that (as stated before) eBay has on the eBay site the Paypal information. So, you tell me how they are not intertwined, how this is not something directed more at the eBay seller. Do you really think that big businesses who accept Paypal online are having their hundreds of thousands of dollars paid through Paypal on hold? I don't think so. That's a very good way for Paypal to lose business.

Ebay cites rudimentary information where PayPal is concerned. Perhaps prionting the T&C out for BOTH companies and a line by line comparison might help you realize that THEY ARE NOT THE SAME and E-Bay cannot dictate the policies of PayPal. The updated notation to the T&C (Dated June 12 on the Legal Agreement's Page for PAYPAL states

Amendment to the PayPal User Agreement

Purchase Payment Fee cap for Sellers who receive eCheck payments. If you are a Seller, your Purchase Payment Fees are set out in Section 8 (Fees). Currently, your Purchase Payment Fee for eCheck-funded payments is capped at a maximum of $5.00. After the effective date listed above, this $5.00 cap will no longer be applied. Your Fee for receiving eCheck-funded payments will continue to be calculated according to the rates set out in Section 8.

Perhaps this part might affect you as well? Updates to all the agreements - going back to 2007 are listed on that page.

READ.

First Paypal was online as a way to pay for purchases. Then eBay purchased Paypal

WRONG. E-bay's PARENT COMPANY purchased PayPal. If you were versed in business at all, you might understand the difference. Simply cause they're owned by the same company doesn't mean they're governed by the same set of Rules & Regs or T&C. I know it's easier to SAY "Ebay owns PayPal" but - then that negates your statement. There is an LLC owning BOTH companies. Know what an LLC is? Limited Liability Corporation. Standard business practice. Would you like a reccomendation for the name of a good business class to perhaps familiarize yourself with the business world, both on a macro and micro-economic level? Let me know; I'd be glad to reccomend a few good classes, and if not, I know the name of a few great books from my old Marketing days that helped explain that aspect of business well.

Then eBay required if we were going to use Paypal that we "advertise" it by placing the Paypal logo on our auctions. Hmm, why do we put Paypal and not the other electronic payment companies on our EBAY AUCTION if eBay is not promoting and wanting us to use Paypal, and by virtue of the fact that they (being eBay) limit us to "their choice" of electronic payments,

As a BUSINESS eBay has the right to decide who they choose to use as vendors for payment - that's not YOUR call.

If they want to let PaPal's VeriSigned Logo (which, by the way means checked out, legal, protected, etc) be listed, then that's eBay's call. If the other companies have NOT decided to either a) allow eBay to use their "verified logo" or b) don't have a verified logo - HOW is that eBay or PayPal's fault. Yes, e-Bay and PayPal have a reciprocal business agreement, but they don't REQUIRE you to use PayPal as the only form of payment. If you want to use on of those other forms - MAKE IT IN BIG LETTERS IN YOUR LISTING. Cripes, Everything is a conspiracy here?

what is it you don't see about the connection between eBay and Paypal. BTW, have you looked to see who owns the other 'payment options' the EBAY SELLERS are allowed??

Actually, no, I havent, but earlier in this thread, I took up four reponses to LIST all the payment options offered by eBay and what they required and what they covered. Did you look at THAT list, either here or on eBay? They're all quite free with the information and offer some great terms.

You have to be blind not to see the connection.

No, not blind. Frustrated beyond all reasonability, but then again - here come your personal attacks. Saddle up.

When I use my Visa on a site and not Paypal, that money goes to the seller site and is shown as a purchase by me and that company I bought from has my funds almost immediately.

Yes, that's handy, isn't it. Every single transaction is charged by the credit card company per transaction, but I don't suppose that counts.

Scam, you say? I don't see any of the card companies holding funds to protect themselves from scams.

No, but you WILL see credit card company fees going up. Have you read the little inserts arriving with your statements lately, saying if you're 3 days late or what have you, your interest rate goes from 9% to 27.4% immediately. That's new. There's more coming, too. They're getting scammed, they're getting ripped off, and they're having accounts closed because of non-payment, leaving them with huge balances. Where do you thingk THAT money is going to be made up from - the little smilie-face you put on your check each month? It's nice that YOU don't have the economy bothering you, but the rest of the business world is. And you're going to feel it, whether you're at eBay, PayPal, or what have you. Bank rates are going up for personal accounts are chaging, fee statuses are changing, everyone is affected. The economy **bleep** - have you noticed?

Oh, and BTW, the credit card companies with their inserts say if you don't like the new interest percentages, you have the right to decline them; they'll just close your account once you pay your balance in full. THAT's new.

 Unfortunately, because we are focused on eBay as a primiary source of our online income,

I'm sorry; I didn't realize you'd lost your job with the economy. I'm very sorry that you have to revert to selling on eBay as your main venue of income. If this is true - I honestly do commiserate. That is awful and I don't envy you. I'm in a crunch too. But I'm not blaming it on eBay or PayPal; I just happen to realize it is a reflection of the economy at this time. My husband's business is down by 80% , and it depends on disposable income. I don't think that one will recover very quickly, and we're at odds of what we're gong to do - losing our house, what will we do for income - everything everyone else in the US (and abroad) is facing at this time. But who is "we"? Is that the 'royal we" or are you just speaking for - oh, everyone?

there probably are a lot of scams, so why is it (if it is not because of the scamming tried on the ebay site) that Paypal has to HOLD our funds especially when the buyers Visa, Mastercard, whatever will help that buyer if there is a problem.

Continues....

[Raveninred]

Yes, you're right, there are a lot of scams on e-bay. But if you read the NYTimes Business section, or Forbes, or other business papers, you might recognise that PayPal, as a micro-economic escrow site has been the largest target of scammers who have successfully copied their e-mails, their demands for payment, and other items. In fact, other portions of this board (not necessarily THIS line of discussion) but many others are "Is this email for real?" "Is this really from PayPal? and in 98% of those questions from people who might be relatively new - the answer is no. They've been scammed,and they're not getting their money back - becaise PayPal is not an investigative site, they don't have the means to go after every scammer, and in any case, even if they reached the scammers - the scammers are sudenly going to feel remorse and say "Sorry, here's your funds/item back." No. It PayPal who has been the largest target, it's been noted in all the financial papers that the sophistication of the people trying to go after people using the PayPal logo is not some poor photoshop copy anymore. And it's ENORMOUS. So, yeah, PayPal instated a 21 day hold - to make sure a process is legal - and then they release your funds. And as I've stated before it S**** like a HOOVER VACUUM, but there is a reality out there; a new reality, and it's the proce of doing business RIGHT NOW, until they can figure out some better security procedures. Nowhere do they state that this is a NEW FOREVER policy. It's new now, as they try to deal with an onslaught that is ferocious and at the point of closing them down. Because how are they supposed to make their money if 1 of 2 transactions is bogus? They're out the credit card processing fee they pay on every transaction, mostly, because they DO work with customers who bring the right paparwork to the Customer Service Center and try to give them their money back. But - you being big on business and all - you tell me: Where does PayPal get their money to keep open and as a legitimate escrow source? They had to do something, so this is the temporary step = FOR NOW.

And Visa protects your purchses (if you have a certain kind of account) and so does American Express, and Master Card - but they don't give it to you just because you say: WAH! You have to prove it to them. And they're losing money too. I predict a radical change in the personal financial markets VERY soon.

When eBay gets involved with our money, it shows up via Paypal, or hadn't you noticed that yet.

If you speak to a person, sure. If you just log a dispute, no, it doesn't. And don't belittle my participation. I'm very aware of MY financial situatuion, to the point of panic. Want to know the reason I came to these boards in the first place? I've been a member of Paypal for almost 10 years; I called them up with a questionable charge that i didn't recognize. They fixed it for me immmediately. I came to these boards to THANK PayPal for being the kind of vendor who worked with their customers, as they did with me, once they could see that my card number had been corrupted and not used by me (actually had someone else's account notation on it, which helped in rectifying the situation). After ten years, they still trated me with respect, came to my immediate aid, and helped me fix a hinky charge. I stayed because I saw an opportunity to help other users like me who might have questions - and I'll fully admit when I don't have the answer and hape that someone else will come on by and be able to assist with that aspect of the question/problem, but mainly, I tell people how to contact Customer Support with their WEB PIN so they can get directly to the people who can help them best. That's my schtick. I got involved in THIS dialogue (such as it is) because I saw people casting aspersions that weren't true, and thought I could point them in the right direction. Spent a lot of time in the T&C of both companies to make sure I knew exacly what I was talking about before I posted. So, your suggestion that i am ignorant, or blind or stupid - not only unfounded, but personal attacks that are completely unfounded. I'd ask for an apology but that would just be wind in the air, I'd guess.

I want to congratulate you on being such a financially independent small seller that you can invest in other inventory to sell even when you have not been paid for the last 30 days of inventory you have just sold, that you have the funds to ship multiple pieces of furniture with shipping of over $100 and up to $275 and not touch the money on hold in Paypal. Frankly, if I could do that, I would have a brick and mortar store. I depend on my income to create more income, or hadn't you heard that is the way it works??

Why gee, no, I had no idea that was the way eBay works. But since this isn't an eBay forum, I won't touch it.

And, NO, I did NOT AGREE to Paypal holding my income for this period of time. This was not the original deal, so I am expressing my not agreeing here, although with eBay and Paypal, it simply is a waste of my time because they are intent on doing what they want to do...and you are still falling for "they need to protect themselves"?? You sound like a buyer with the crap you are saying about how much they do to make things right for you. HA! For buyers, YES, to the point of allowing buyers to make false claims without investigation into the claim before action is taken negatively by Paypal against the seller.

Ah, YES, you DID agree to it; there are updates to the T&C all the time - there's a notation in your PayPal account when you sign in about an update. Go ahead, it's on the right of the page, top item of the PayPal dashboard when you sign in. If you disagreed with it, that was your time to do so. Unlike credit card compaies, they are not beholden to send out Printed updates to their T&C, and likely there was a page TELLING you about the update (I saw one and clicked off on it), so don't compalin because you didn't read what you should have. Have you Looked at the Legal Agreement's page? And the updates page that GOES BACK TO 2007? You clicked off on every one of those agreements, and by continuing to use PayPal, signified your agreements to those terms. Sorry you're not educated about business practices enough to understand your actions, but that's exactly what you did. If you don't LIKE those likely temporary procedures, then you are free to use another form of payment or another venue of selling, not the eBay has anything to do with PayPal's practices, but you seem unable to distinguish between the two, so rather than bring your vitriol, bitterness and anger -which, if I were a new eBay member - would scare the **bleep** out of me and scare me away from you as a seller for fear you'd take your anger out on the business practices of a different company on me. Not good for your business.

Why risk it?? New people read these discussions and see what kind of person you are by the kind of post you make. You'd make me not want to do business with you, no matter how fabulous your furniture. And no, I didn't go to eBay to look YOU up and make disparaging remarks - as we are about to see you did. Nice to know I'll have to change my eBay name for fear of repercussion by a bitter poster.

You said:   although they do the best job of  working with you to get your money back and making sure you get your stuff and your money.   YES, this definitely sounds like a buyer more than a seller. "get your stuff AND your money" hmm, that is what some buyers do...get their "stuff and their money" and it is not because Paypal dictates what goes to an eBayer. It is eBay, and they do that via Paypal.

Get your stuff and get your money is contrary to what you think, a catchall phrase meaning protection for buyers AND sellers. Think sellers are the only ones getting ripped off? Rather narrow minded and shows exactly WHY you don't understand these pratices have been put in place in the first place. And I'm tired of telling you about TWO DISTINCT COMPANIES. If you can't get it in your head, than no one can help you, and you'll just be bitter and peeved no matter what ANYONE says. Revel in that anger, I guess. It won't do your body any good, nor your disposition, nor your business. So, yeah - best of luck with that, and all.

You really don't get it, do you??

Am I showing you in the LEAST that I do, or are you just going to continue to put up straw men and attack me personally? Because,, yeah, I DO get it, and I've stated before I know it VACUUMS LIKE A HOOOVER, but you won't accept that I know it's a pain, and I know that it makes things harder on you and other sellers, you're just wrapped up in trying to prove that *I* don't know what I'm talking about even though *I* provide links and evidence, and you attack and make it personal. I'm your nemesis here? Great, make ME the bad guy, if that helps you in any way. I'll just keep trying to HELP people, you just attack them personally. Great to know your board participation is that limited.

You also said:

And why wouldn't you contact the Selller first if you were having a problem? you'd just go to eBay because it was your "duty"? That's a little weird. I'd try and resolve it with the person I was having the problem with, not the least of all but to also create a better, longer, more documented paper-trail that would help me if I did have to go down the dispute resolution trail.......

Are you still addressing my comment because I completely agree that a buyer should go directly to the seller first.

"You are a bit weird since no way would I, who knows better, go straighth to eBay. That is the newbies you are talking about, the ones who do feel they have this "duty", "obligation", whatever you want to call it to report negatively ANYTHING they may THINK they do not see as the way they would do it themselves...and what about (as long as you brought up the subject) the buyers who "decide" that they "think" the shipping is too high, even if they knew what it was before they bought, even though they can read it on the shipping label (my labels always have the shipping showing, the exact shipping, and do you know that some buyers are so lacking in intelligence, they must think I paid less than the label states since they leave less than a 5.0 on shipping cost? Now, that is just plain ignorant !!  Based on what you have said, you are apparently more of a buyer than a seller and not so great a buyer at that. I have been here EIGHT years, and during that time I have never gone down a long dispute resolution trail because I do the right thing. I have been attacked with disputes by stupid buyers who have no idea I can prove I did ship their item and that it did arrive at their address. I don't need long paper trails since I, as a longtime EXCELLENT seller on eBay, always do the right thing, but I don't always sell to the right people. Burn me once and you are banned from bidding on or buying anything from me. So, why are we talking about eBay here if you said this has nothing to do with eBay?"

Wow, a whole paragraph attacking ME, instead of dealing with anything productive. Congratulations for being in business for EIGHT years. That's a testament to a very good, sound business model. And wow, super good for you that you never have to provide any evidence to anyone to resolve a dispute in your favor because you are a SUPER SELLER. Which I don't quite believe since you have to have the evidence that it was delivered, they signed for it, etc. That IS called a paper-trail, and it is what is required in any dispute resolution, for EITHER COMPANY. Why do you insist on fighting ME over the most basic of things??? But, your paragraph does show your contempt for your buyers, which I find odd. You need them for your business, but you obviously think they're stupid because you got less than stellar feedback over something. In all my dealings with Sellers or Buyers on eBay, I had terrific contact with the other person thorughout the transaction, and encouraged them to contact me at any time if they were haveing a problem or if something came up, or if they needed something. Contact and the willingness to work with people has always benefited me on both sides of the transaction.

Continues

[Raveninred]

You sound like a female seller who buys more than she sells, one who spends more time in chat rooms discussing not exactly what you have longtime experience in.

Ah, yet another personal attack and one that shows you've looked me up. Yes, I am female - wow. Revelation. And has bearing on...what? And so my feedback shows that I don't do business that often, but if you looked at that feedback, you'd see A+++++ for every transaction. Even the one I had to cancel after I had won the auction because I suddenly neeeded the money to travel to see my mother for a family emergency, and apologized to the seller, let them know immediately - ands still got A+++ on that transaction because I was clear, and made contact and offered to make reparations at another time. I guess being a) polite, b) willing to open a dialogue and c) willing to work with my sellers and buyers has paid off for ME. I'm not sure what your situation is - you must be doing well, since you've had your electronic storefront for eight years, so maybe it's just ME that draws your ire. Perhaps you should let me know your business name so I could avoid it and thereby save us both some grief.

Bottom line, you don't have eBay without being involved with Paypal as the payment method IF you have been around a while.

A) Been around a while.

Once we could take checks, money orders, cashiers checks, and that was fair  BECAUSE eBAY is ONLY A SELLING VENUE...and at that time, it was a good venue, less than opening a brick and mortar store, and we could sell when we wanted to and at what price we wanted to just like if we owned a brick and mortar store. We could close. We could go on vacation. BUT, now, as eBAY clearly shows in our DSR information, if there is a spike in our sales (which, BTW, would happen if we are coming off vacation), then surely there must be something amiss, so let's HOLD their funds through Paypal. READ THAT PLEASE, since you seem to be so well versed in what eBay has to say...and it DOES lead to holding funds on Paypal, so PULEEZE, do not think they are not working hand-in-hand.

B) Ah, the good old days, before there was so much loss of funds on both the Seller and Buyer side...Times change.

C) I never said they didn't have reciprocal agreements - ebay does with ALL THE PAYMENT VENDORS, not just PayPal. So PULEEZE, read up on that.

D) Ebay has grown into the largest online peer-to-peer suction site. They have the right to re-examine their T&C and change them AS THEY SEE FIT. Sorry it irks you the way it does, but - again, That's not PAYPAL, who says anything about a spike in your sales - that's eBay, once more - DIFFERENT COMPANY.

I really get the feeling once you grasp that these may be owned by the same company but are not run the same, you may begin to understand that this is not a personal attack on you or any other seller - it is the way it is at this time. It may/probably will change in the future. If you choose to stick it out, I'm sure you'll be happier because there will be more protections in place, they will have been able to go after some of the larger companies attacking them,  and everyone will be protected on both sides of the fence.

And, if I am FIGHTING, it is against those like you who think they know it all.

Can you PUHLEEZE stop with the personal attacks? Its tiring and accomplishes nothing for those who might actually want to be educated in this thread.

When is a duck a duck?

When it Quacks Ebay and PayPal at the same time and doesn't listen to anyone but themselves?

So, when is eBay and Paypal the same??? When eBay refers to how funds come to be held in the first place.....and how that can be changed, and they do it on eBAY, that is when the eBay duck and the Paypal duck come together and it is not so pretty for the outcome of sellers, UNLIKE YOU, who do not have the money for their income paid to them via electronic payment to be held for what amounts to 30 days. We depend on that income, and yes it is OURS when we have backed up our EBAY and PAYPAL with a credit card and a checking account for them to "withdraw" funds from arbitrarilary.

Again, me, me, me. I must really get under your skin. Your facts are wrong. Accept it, or just accept being unhappy. Well, actually, either way, I get the feeling I know how that one is going to work out. And you have no idea what the status on MY PayPal account is, so don't feel the need to speculate. Really, don't. It's a waste of your time. And again, the "royal we", because you've somehow made yourself the Speaker of the poor me Robin Hood brigade?? Get over yourself. You speak for YOU. Others in this thread (all 320+ pages) have made THEIR feelings clear; no one asked you to step up to the plate and advocate for them, or decide that I am "teh evil" for them. Yes, you are frustrated and angry. This comes through clearly. Why I am the object of your new-found ire simply because I provided information that was readily available but not being used is your thing, for whatever reason, and I am sure that other people are as tired of it as me. Actually - I KNOW they are; I get e-mails letting me know so.

So, how much have you sold lately and used other funds than those paid to you for the items you pay to ship without first having been allowed to use that money?? My guess is NOT a THING or so little you can pay the 7. to ship. I can do that, too, but furniture just won't ship so inexpensively. I could tell from what eBay has in their "information", they want us to only use UPS, USPS and now we are "allowed" to use FedEx, but that is something that although they say it is okay, using FedEx, when eBay can't "SEE" who, what, why, when, where, that will affect our DSRs, or do you even know what the meaning is of the DSRs?? Of course, that has nothing to do with Paypal and their hold on money, does it???

No, actually it doesn't. Conspiracy theories are fun though, aren't they?

I can go on and on about lack of insight and experience lacking...Why are you so blind???

Wow, again the personal insults. And I'm blind...well, I read the Terms and Conditions. Turned out you didn't. Who is blind? Now, I'm just having fun. Because you're just so anxious to make this about ME!!!

THE COMPLETE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT PAYPAL IS EARNING BIG BUCKS ON ON A MINISCULE PERCENTAGE OF INTEREST BY HOLDING OUR FUNDS. MULTIPLY BY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OR MILLIONS OF SELLERS ON EBAY ALONE AND THEY ARE MAKING A SMALL FORTUNE..

Wrong. Oh sorry - should I use all caps? WRONG!

WHY DO I THINK THEY DID THIS OTHER THAN JUST PLAIN GREED?? NOT ENOUGH PEOPLE WOULD OPEN A MONEY MARKET WITH THEM ! WHAT IDIOT WOULD GIVE PAYPAL MORE FINANCIAL INFORMATION AND POWER THAN THEY NEED TO HAVE OR TO KNOW???

They need more financial information than your credit card and bank account access? - which you already volunteered you'd given them. That seems like enough to me if they really wanted to rip you off. That being you, YOU personally, sorry forgot the caps - YOU PERSONALLY.

NOT MANY, SO LET'S HAVE A BOARD MEETING TO HOLD FUNDS WHICH ..OH, BTW, COINCIDES WITH EBAY NOW CHARGING A FINAL VALUE FEE ON OUR SHIPPING AS WELL.  MORE MONEY FOR BOTH SIDES OF THE TABLE, SO TO SPEAK..

For the final time, and PUHLEEZE use your reading skills here: PAY PAL AND E-BAY ARE NOT THE SAME COMPANY. THEY DON'T HAVE THE SAME BOARD MEETINGS. THEY DON'T HAVE THE SAME POLICIES. THEIR T&C ARE DIFFERENT. And I didn't write them. Get a grip on this fact, or you're never gonna get it. Different companies. Don't have meetings together. Same Parent Company, an LLC - not the same thing at all.

READ UP ON ALL THE INFORMATION BEFORE YOU COME IN HERE SOUNDING LIKE A WIMP

*giggles* And not some big personally attacking Ape? Really, it's nice to know you think SO MUCH of me that this thread was more about ME than facts.

WHO JUST 'GOES ALONG' WITH WHAT "BIG BROTHER" DISHES OUT WITHOUT A SINGLE PEEP OF A COMPLAINT. THEY, BEING EBAY, GAVE US A VENUE THAT SOUNDED SO GREAT, AND YEAR BY YEAR THEY HAVE DONE SOMETHING TO TAKE THAT SATISFACTION FROM US

If you ain't happy, friend, take it somewhere else. I'll bet either company at this point would be GLAD if you went ANYWHERE else. But that would be me guessing about a company's bottom line or business plan and being uninformed, so I'll just say : that would be MY opinion of what I see.

AND ALSO MORE AND MORE OF OUR INCOME....AND NOW SINCE THEY 'JUST' DECIDED TO CHARGE THAT HIGH PERCENTAGE TO INCLUDE CHARGING IT ON SHIPPING, TOO, THEY HAVE BEEN IN THE DOG HOUSE ENOUGH FOR THIS YEAR...SO LET'S PUT IT ON PAYPAY, GUYS...PAYPAL HASN'T DONE ANYTHING THIS YEAR TO HURT THE SELLERS, SO LET'S PUT IT ON THEIR BACK AND GET THE ATTENTION AWAY FROM US PRETENDING WE (EBAY) ARE CHARGING ON THE SHIPPING NOW BECAUSE WE FEEL IT WILL LOWER THE SHIPPING. HOGWASH!!   IT'S ALWAYS ABOUT THE BOTTOM LINE. OR HAVEN'T YOU NOTICED THAT SALES HAVE DROPPED FOR EBAY DURING THIS BOHAMA MAMA ADMINISTRATION????

---

Oh, I didn't realize you were an Obama hater as well. Well, your politics certainly make sense in light of this "converstation". Yes, Obama is "the evil" and created all these problems too. Cause the economy didn't tank during his administration - it tanked during the campaign, remember? And John McCain said "the fundamentals of the economy are strong." And the next day the stock market went Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew all the way down and that's when John McCain began to lose his campaign. That's HISTORY. NEWS. Available online. But that compared with his choice of running mate, "Momma Fizzy", who was not fully vetted and was chosen because she was a female over EVERYONE else in the field (wicked stupid - yes, I said stupid), and she couldn't answer simple questions like "what newspapers do you read?" the biggest softball question in history, and she called it an attack by the MSM. (Yep, those conspiracy theories sure are fun!)

Really, this thread has done nothing but indicate you are not going to be happy - period. You're convinced other people somehow get it better than you and you're angry, angry, angry. And incoherent. So, I'm done answering you here or anywhere else, I won't engage with you, and really have nothing left to say to you. You made it personal, and you made it derrogatory. And although this e-mail was probably not inthe best of taste answering you - I did feel the need to point a few things out.

And now I am done. So anything you write to me or in response to me will be ignored. I tried in good faith to discuss, and you weren't having that. So - wooo - you win. I won't engage in that kind of behavior. It doesn't do the readers of this board any good, or me any good.

I truly wish you well with your business. I hope things get worked out soon so everything works out for you in a better disposition. Nothing will go back to the "way things used to be" on either PayPal or EBay, but I do hope conditions improve for you. It would be a  shame to give up after eight years of success.

best of luck,

Raven