How can I appeal Paypal's decision?

[glitterninja]

I purchased some jewelry from Guess online last month and when it arrived, it was very poor quality with some broken pieces.

I went through the Guess online return process, got a return authorization, shipped the items back to the return address I was given, and tracking showed they were received by Guess on Nov 7th.

I never did get a refund and couldn't get anyone at Guess to answer either phone calls or emails, so I opened a dispute on Dec 5th. I gave Paypal the tracking number showing the items were received at the Guess return office, gave them the return authorization info, everything they needed for the dispute.

On the 6th, Guess escalated it to a claim and said they would refund me as soon as they got the items back, and claimed they weren't received yet. I couldn't respond to their comments and got the message that the process was now closed and Paypal would decide the case.

On the 7th, Paypal said they were "unable to verify delivery to your seller" and decided in favor of Guess. So now I have no jewelry and am out all the money, too.

I want to appeal this -- is there any way? The tracking number says RIGHT THERE that the return was received on Nov 7th. How did Paypal miss this?

Any thoughts?

[sharpiemarker]

Did you fund payment with credit card?  File a dispute with card issuer.

[glitterninja]

I wanted to update again because this is such a strange situation that I thought it might be helpful to someone else if it happens to them.

Guess? sent my returned jewelry back to me! I have NEVER had this happen before from any company -- I can't understand why this return has been such a pain. It's just costume jewelry, nothing expensive, and I returned it after getting their approval and using their return system.

Anyhow, I have just bought return postage again through Paypal, but the return address is still showing as "unconfirmed" in the Paypal transaction page, just like it did last time. My suspicion is that Paypal doesn't even look the tracking up, they just see Guess? returns address as "unconfirmed" and decide the package wasn't sent to the right place.

Before the jewelry arrived here, I'd opened a chargeback with my credit card company, and now I'm getting emails from Paypal that sound distinctly like they are not happy that I opened a chargeback. Who knows what will happen.

[sharpiemarker]

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@glitterninja wrote:

Guess? sent my returned jewelry back to me!

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Hah!  They figured since you lost the case, they sent you back the defective goods.

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@glitterninja wrote:

I returned it after getting their approval and using their return system.

Anyhow, I have just bought return postage again through Paypal, but the return address is still showing as "unconfirmed" in the Paypal transaction page, just like it did last time. My suspicion is that Paypal doesn't even look the tracking up, they just see Guess? returns address as "unconfirmed" and decide the package wasn't sent to the right place.

Before the jewelry arrived here, I'd opened a chargeback with my credit card company, and now I'm getting emails from Paypal that sound distinctly like they are not happy that I opened a chargeback. Who knows what will happen.

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So you asked for a another RMA from Guess?  

When a return is done via SNAD case with PayPal, PayPal will indicate the address to return to and would go by that address.  But your dispute case has been closed and you made the return originally with Guess?'s return policy, not via case as you opened after returning merchandise.

PayPal no longer enforce the requirement for confirmed addresses since their new checkout flow got implemented and people can add ship to/gift addresses on the go these days.  Their tech support told me that.

They shouldn't be mad.  You returned the merch and had tracking and the postage receipt to show were they ship it to.  They even returned what you shipped back.  And you made sure it wasn't a replacement, right?

[DPCreations]

PayPal doesn't like it when a buyer cannot resolve a dispute with a seller.  PayPal doesn't like it when a buyer resorts to a credit card chargeback after loosing a PayPal dispute.  Doing this too many times will get your PayPal account limited or even closes WITHOUT WARNING.  Chargebacks should be done seriously when the buyer has a strong case, such as unauthorized use of a credit card.

[glitterninja]

I'm aware Paypal doesn't like chargebacks -- I absolutely did not want to do a chargeback. Everyone was suggesting it earlier in this thread like it was no big deal, but I've had Paypal since 1999 and sold a lot on eBay, so I've heard the horror stories. Have never done a chargeback myself but really did not want to have to.

I'm aware that I could end up with my 17-year Paypal account, which I use almost daily, closed down with no recourse from Paypal.

But I'm not sure what else I could have done at this point. I really didn't want to just eat the cost of the jewelry. This was a no-win situation.

[glitterninja]

Just wanted to update that the "advice" to go to my credit card to do a chargeback was NOT GOOD.

I did return the items a second time per Guess's request and they sent me a confirmation that the items were received, but I didn't get a refund. Guess has been trying to refund me for 10 days now and Paypal won't accept it because I filed the credit card dispute and they're angry about it, so they're deliberately blocking my refund.

My credit card company sent me paperwork showing that my dispute with them was contested, but not by Guess, by PAYPAL. Paypal contacted my credit card company to tell them to not allow Guess to refund me for items returned!

Paypal's reasoning to my credit card is "No valid credit voucher was provided showing that the seller agrees the buyer is due reimbursement" and "No proof of cancellation was provided."

I've been on the phone about three hours to try to get this resolved and Paypal is clearly and deliberately refusing to do so. My credit card company and Guess are difficult to deal with because you have to explain all this every time you call in and they never really understand.

[DPCreations]

@glitterninja

Perhaps you didn't read my comments about caution before your file a dispute with your credit card as it doesn't sit well with PayPal.

As I suggested the only valid reason to file a dispute with credit card in this case would have been for unauthorized use, but you did authorize, so there was no basis to complain to credit card.

Your agreement with PayPal is to resolve issues with PayPal.  PayPal has enough people on their legal team to make a good defense for their buisiness, as you learned.

[glitterninja]

So even though Guess made a mistake and is now trying to correct it, you're saying Paypal has every right to prevent this correction from going through as a punitive measure against me, simply because I wanted the refund I was due?

[DPCreations]

Not saying PayPal has a right to deny a correction, but PayPal does have a right to deny your credit card dispute; that was not a request for correction.

Any correction needs to be between you, the seller, and PayPal, not the credit card bank where you filed a separate dispute on its own merit, or not.

If Guess made a mistake, then it's up to Guess to fix it without your filing a credit card dispute.

You could read PayPal legal agreements and the proecess for disputes.

[glitterninja]

Did I not already say that I canceled the credit card dispute weeks ago? If not, sorry, I thought sure I said so back in my last update in December.

Once I got those items back from Guess in December, I canceled the dispute with my credit card. Then I returned the items a second time and received a return confirmation from Guess, and at that point was supposed to get a refund.

Guess has spoken with Paypal multiple times but there's never any resolution. I've tried  calling Paypal myself but couldn't get anyone after three hours on hold, and when I sent emails, whoever or whatever answers doesn't understand what I'm asking for, and always sends me something unrelated.

When I called my credit card to check to see if they got the refund (I thought maybe it showed up there but not on my Paypal dash) I told them the story, and they said they would send me copies of what Paypal had sent them, hoping it would help. That's what I received today, and that's when I realized Paypal had disputed the chargeback and with completely different reasoning than what they gave me.