Business protection

me_dev
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I have a website where people buy and sell custom made software online. Nothing is physically shipped to the Buyer. Let's consider a situation for an example, where a Buyer  gets some custom software done, pays using Paypal, downloads the software from the website and later after few days, files a Dispute/Chargeback falsely stating that it was not him who made the payment (or state that he did not receive any software or any other reason)

 

In this case:

1. How can I, as the website owner (& on behalf of other sellers working through my website), contest this chargeback?

2. How can Paypal help me in resolving the situation?

3. We will be having all proof of correspondence online, like chat logs, conversations in private messaging, etc. available online in the website. Will this be of any help at all?

4. What can be done to make sure that Buyer is genuine when he tries to make the payment in my website?

5. What will Paypal really do when they receive such a complaint? 

6. Will selling software through my website, be eligible for the Seller protection?

 

Looking forward for replies. 

 

Thank you.

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surplusdealdude
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If the user is genuine and trying to access the website from office or Kinko's, should we really deny them the access to their account?

 

Well, depending on the amount involved, you might create a payment option for the buyer to wire transfer the money, then you don't care where he works from.  That might also be a workable solution in the case you mentioned where multiple downloads to multiple locations are required.

 

You can construct any number of specialized payment plans that you like.

 

Maybe the user does not have a PC/internet connection at home or does not spend time on business activities at home

 

I would wonder how prevalent this is and whether you want to deal with these customers, then.  You don't have to swing at every pitch.

 

If you have tried the app. already, you will notice it does not show the physical address of the IP i.e. house number + street name & we need that to match it up with the address on the credit card.

 

I didn't try the app - I just grabbed it as an example.

 

Too bad - it would have solved a bunch of issues.

 

 

I like the combination of wire transfers for large amounts and debit cards for small amounts - it's the best idea so far.

 

By the way, double-check with your bank on how long you should wait before a debit card payment can be considered non-cancellable.

 

If the customer is in a hurry with a smaller amount, they could always wire transfer the funds or even send the money by Western Union Instant money transfer - that's non-cancellable as well.

 

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tonobo
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1.dont know

2.dont know

3.Practically means nothing even in a court of law

4.Only accept transactions from verified accounts or risk it

5.Spend a really long time going through "stages" to resolve it even when it's dead obvious the other party is fraudulent or whatever the case may be. It's still questionable wether their protection system actually works here, I'll let you know when they solve my aging problems.

6.Last time I checked no

 

Sorry if my response lacks semantics. I work for a software and web design studio that uses PayPal for some of it's services..just speaking from those expieriences and personal ones. I just use it for Ebay and have both positive and negative experiences.

 

I know they at least have obvious incomponceies in some areas, most notably their security and responsivness. When their staff ask for feedback it usually ends up humouruss at best. Jokes being shared and ironic statements between officials etc etc

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me_dev
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@tonobo

 

Firstly, let me thank you for taking time to post your reply. I understand that you may not have answers to all of the questions and I do appreciate you for stating that honestly.

 

I noticed that in your reply for my 4th question, you mentioned:

"Only accept transactions from verified accounts or risk it"

 

May I ask you what is the benefit of the Verified accounts in this case? I mean how different would that be from a regular paypal account and how will it benefit me?

 

Looking forward for your response.

 

Thank you.

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tonobo
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It just means there is a bank account or paypal card binded to the buyers account and their transaction limits are lifted. It's basically just better than nothing. The whole system really relies on PayPal responsiveness. Which I'm sorry to say takes quite a while.

 

I'm only a little bitter because I have a open case that is pass the 'further investigation' date and they don't respond or anything. Most transactions I've had as a buyer are smooth, I've heard from a lot of ebay sellers it's hostile waters as a seller often, but I guess the mostly streamlined transactions almost outweigh the negativity.

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me_dev
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So other than the single advantage that you mentioned, so are there no other advantages? And I was expecting something out of it!!!

 

So considering that, I would like to ask you something (if I may). Did you ever have an experience where the Buyer got the work done, paid you, yet filed a false chargeback?

1. If yes, what did you do to resolve such a case?

2. If you did not really go through such a case (& I hope you won't ever go through that), what do you suggest me to do in case, I land up in a similar situation?

3. What steps can be taken to possibly avoid such a situation and what can really be done within our rights as a Paypal user?

 

I hope we can work out something for such a case. Maybe in future when you setup your own company, you might find our findings helpful. Please let me know.

 

Thank you.

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surplusdealdude
Advisor
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If this is a credit card chargeback, the following answers apply;

 

1. How can I, as the website owner (& on behalf of other sellers working through my website), contest this chargeback?

 

You can't - you didn't set it up right.  If you have emails from the buyers admitting delivery, that might help in a credit card chargeback, but it won't help in a paypal dispute.


2. How can Paypal help me in resolving the situation?

 

They can't - you didn't follow the rules.  They will present whatever information you can muster to the credit card company, but they're not making the decision, the cc company is.  The cc company will always rule in favour of the customer provisional;ly, then make a final call within 75 days based on what you provide them with.

 

3. We will be having all proof of correspondence online, like chat logs, conversations in private messaging, etc. available online in the website. Will this be of any help at all?

 

Depends what it says - the cc company isn't as rule-bound as Paypal is and they're trying to be fair, too.  They'll need an admission that the item WAS received that they can believe.


4. What can be done to make sure that Buyer is genuine when he tries to make the payment in my website?

 

Nothing.  It's the equivalent of trying to make sure that every customer in a BM store won't shoplift.  It's the chance that you take.

 

Having a set of policies that lessen the chances of success in a scam will help, but there will always be a scammer with a new angle.  It's just a risk of doing business.

 

Might be an idea for software designers to put a "time-bomb" in every program that stops them from working unless a clearance code is inputted by a certain date, but then you cause other problems.

 

5. What will Paypal really do when they receive such a complaint? 

 

Exactly what they say they will do - they'll review it, make any suggestions that they think will help, and pass it along to the cc company.

 

6. Will selling software through my website, be eligible for the Seller protection?

 

IF you put the software on a CD and mail it with DC to the address on the payment advice, yes.  The way you're people are doing it, it's a virtual item and paypal doesn't cover virtual items.

 

 

If this is a Paypal chargeback, you are out of luck - Paypal does not offer Seller protection for virtual items and especially when those items are sent over the net.

 

You MUST put the items on a CD and mail them to fulfil Paypal's requirements.

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me_dev
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@surplusdealdude

 

Thank you so much for your detailed answer. I should have been specific about what kind of chargeback. Well here's how it is: Customer will have an option to select Paypal as payment method via a button on my website and when clicked upon, will redirect the customer to the Paypal official website. The customer can then either make the payment with funds existing in his Paypal account (if he has one) or choose to pay using his credit card. So this is really up to the customer to decide what kind of payment he would like to choose.

 

Regarding the answers you have provided, I have a couple of questions:

 

1. You can't - you didn't set it up right.  If you have emails from the buyers admitting delivery, that might help in a credit card chargeback, but it won't help in a paypal dispute.

 

Within my website, when a seller/professional submits their work to a Buyer(who is paying for the custom work to be done), the Buyer has the provision to download the work from the website itself without having to wait for a CD to arrive in a mail (if the work was to be put on a CD and mailed it to the Buyer). All the work uploaded by the seller will be available for the Buyer to review and download 24/7 (as long as the website is up and running). So nothing is being sent to the email of the Buyer. Rather the Buyers can download it by logging into their account and visiting the area where the seller has uploaded the work. Also it is possible for an unethical Buyer to simply download the work and yet file a chargeback stating that he is not the one who has actually made the payment in the first place. So what can be done to prevent such or to handle such situation if they occur?

 

2. They can't - you didn't follow the rules.  They will present whatever information you can muster to the credit card company, but they're not making the decision, the cc company is.  The cc company will always rule in favour of the customer provisional;ly, then make a final call within 75 days based on what you provide them with.

 

The website have agreements, disclaimer & legal documents that support the way the website works. Also one of the legal documents state that the customer cannot file a chargeback if he wishes to get work done. So can I submit those agreements and show the disclaimer to the CC company when they ask me for information? Will this help? The only problem I see is when the Buyer says that it was not him who actually made the payment & it was someone else other than him (other than that, I think, everything else can be handled via the online proof). Now that I mentioned about some of the legal features that the website sports, how do we deal with this situation and what can be the possible out come?

 

3. Depends what it says - the cc company isn't as rule-bound as Paypal is and they're trying to be fair, too.  They'll need an admission that the item WAS received that they can believe.

 

The provision to download the items from the website is available to the Buyers and long as the website is up and running (provided the Buyer is not suspended, banned for doing something really bad on the website). Considering that a Buyer's account is in good standing, there should be nothing that can stop them from downloading the work. Only the website Admins, the Buyer and seller of the work will have access to download the work. Access to Admin to view the work and download it, is given to enable them to review the work in case of Disputes (to resolve them). If a Buyer alleges that he has received the item, then in the first place, he cannot even file for a chargeback as it makes it nonsensical to do so. If an item was not delivered, the Buyer can file a dispute within our website and our staff will intervene to review the case. If the item was really not delivered, then Admin releases the funds back to the Buyer. So as you see, the system is really fair. The only expected problem is that when Buyer tries to file a false chargeback even after he has received the items.

 

4. Exactly what they say they will do - they'll review it, make any suggestions that they think will help, and pass it along to the cc company.

 

We will be having all the information that they would possibly need about the Buyer account, Transactions, payments, etc. So will this help?

 

5. If this is a Paypal chargeback, you are out of luck - Paypal does not offer Seller protection for virtual items and especially when those items are sent over the net.

 

For now, we are not accepting credit card payments directly. We are having payment processors like Paypal, handle that for us. How different is a Paypal chargeback from the chargeback on those credit cards? So if a Buyer pays with the funds in his Paypal account and then falsely files a chargeback with Paypal stating that it was not him who made the payment in the first place, will Paypal simply ignore whatever we have as proof with us on our website, deduct our account of the funds and simply return it to the Buyer?

 

Once a Buyer releases payment, a seller can request for a withdrawal. Consider that by the time the Buyer has filed a chargeback, that the Seller has withdrawn his share of the money. This is paid from the company's Business account. So in this case, does it mean that Paypal is going to deduct amount from company's Business account, when they receive a chargeback? (which would be completely wrong as the amount held in company's Business account could be the amount unrelated the payment received from the Buyer). Note that the seller has been paid off already. Any funds in the company's Business account is a result of other transactions going on in the website.

 

6. There are other websites out there who are working on similar principle as our website. How could possibly they be dealing with such similar issues? Please note that they are accepting payments only from "Verified" Buyers. So how is this going to help in avoiding chargebacks?

 

7. I heard that instead of first going through the dispute in case of chargebacks, Paypal actually reverses the payment made by the Buyer to the receiver (in this case, our company's Paypal Business account). Is this true? If yes, this would impact our business in a negative manner. What can be done in this case to refrain Paypal from deducting our company account of the funds without first finishing the dispute process?

 

Please let me know what can be done. Appreciate your efforts.

 

Thank you.

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surplusdealdude
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1. You can't - you didn't set it up right.  If you have emails from the buyers admitting delivery, that might help in a credit card chargeback, but it won't help in a paypal dispute.

 

Within my website, when a seller/professional submits their work to a Buyer(who is paying for the custom work to be done), the Buyer has the provision to download the work from the website itself without having to wait for a CD to arrive in a mail (if the work was to be put on a CD and mailed it to the Buyer). All the work uploaded by the seller will be available for the Buyer to review and download 24/7 (as long as the website is up and running). So nothing is being sent to the email of the Buyer. Rather the Buyers can download it by logging into their account and visiting the area where the seller has uploaded the work. Also it is possible for an unethical Buyer to simply download the work and yet file a chargeback stating that he is not the one who has actually made the payment in the first place. So what can be done to prevent such or to handle such situation if they occur?

 

 

Ewww - that's a licence to steal for a customer.

 

You really don't have any protection at all there from either a paypal dispute or a chargeback.  A buyer can ALWAYS  say that it was an unauthorized transaction.

 

I'm not an expert on this, and I would strongly suggest that you network with other people doing what you're doing and see what they'e done.

 

I can't see any way that you'll have protection from a Paypal claim for non-delivery - you have no proof that the buyer has received the goods unless something is mailed to them with DC.  The "unauthorized transaction" business is only a CC chargeback issue, though - Paypal makes the owner of an account responsible for its use, authorized or not.

 

You might have some protection against an unauthorized use chargeback if you can confirm that the user used the same computer every time, so an IP identifier might help.  It's going to be messy if the guy moves or if his ISP changes the IP on him.

 

Another option might be to have each user sign an agreement agreeing to be bound by certain rules of the website - you'll have to see a very good lawyer on this, though, I don't know whether such clauses are enforceable.

 

 

2. They can't - you didn't follow the rules.  They will present whatever information you can muster to the credit card company, but they're not making the decision, the cc company is.  The cc company will always rule in favour of the customer provisional;ly, then make a final call within 75 days based on what you provide them with.

 

The website have agreements, disclaimer & legal documents that support the way the website works. Also one of the legal documents state that the customer cannot file a chargeback if he wishes to get work done. So can I submit those agreements and show the disclaimer to the CC company when they ask me for information? Will this help? The only problem I see is when the Buyer says that it was not him who actually made the payment & it was someone else other than him (other than that, I think, everything else can be handled via the online proof). Now that I mentioned about some of the legal features that the website sports, how do we deal with this situation and what can be the possible out come?

 

 

Well, I see we are thinking along the same lines here, referencing my comments for question 1.

 

You can certainly submit the documents and they may help against everything but an unauthorized use claim ( because, if the buyer didn't authroize the payment, they can argue that they never agreed to the terms).

 

This type of term is called a "contract of adhesion" and the Courts do not like them if it ever comes to Court.  The Court will enforce them ONLY if they specifically prohibit the activity that the buyer is doing - the legal language is that the terms are to be construed strictly against the profferer of the contract ( that's you).  In actual practice ( I've seen this work in a bank case), the Courts find a way to find that the language did NOT strictly prohibit the claim.

 

The credit card company may accept them, but a Court may not, if it comes to that.

 

 

3. Depends what it says - the cc company isn't as rule-bound as Paypal is and they're trying to be fair, too.  They'll need an admission that the item WAS received that they can believe.

 

The provision to download the items from the website is available to the Buyers and long as the website is up and running (provided the Buyer is not suspended, banned for doing something really bad on the website). Considering that a Buyer's account is in good standing, there should be nothing that can stop them from downloading the work. Only the website Admins, the Buyer and seller of the work will have access to download the work. Access to Admin to view the work and download it, is given to enable them to review the work in case of Disputes (to resolve them). If a Buyer alleges that he has received the item, then in the first place, he cannot even file for a chargeback as it makes it nonsensical to do so. If an item was not delivered, the Buyer can file a dispute within our website and our staff will intervene to review the case. If the item was really not delivered, then Admin releases the funds back to the Buyer. So as you see, the system is really fair. The only expected problem is that when Buyer tries to file a false chargeback even after he has received the items.

 

 

I'm not commenting on whether the system is fair or not - it sounds like it is.

 

Might be an idea to stick a pop-up in before a download is authorized to the effect that the buyer warrants  that he is the person he says he is and that he agrees to not file a chargeback - then you have a specific agreement to cover that particular download.  It won't cover you in all cases, but it may tip the balance in some.

 


4. Exactly what they say they will do - they'll review it, make any suggestions that they think will help, and pass it along to the cc company.

 

We will be having all the information that they would possibly need about the Buyer account, Transactions, payments, etc. So will this help?

 

It might - I can say for sure, because I'm not the one making the decision.

 

You want to be making a straight-line logical argument here, referring to the evidence as needed - don't just dump a pile of info on the CC company and expect them to work it out.

 

When all is said and done, you're fighting the equivalent of a small claims court action and the cc company reviewer is the Judge.  I've found them to be fair in the one case I had - they found in my favour even though the person said that it was an unauthorized use and I actually shipped to a different adress than was on his card.  You might get a different guy with a different point of view.

 

 

5. If this is a Paypal chargeback, you are out of luck - Paypal does not offer Seller protection for virtual items and especially when those items are sent over the net.

 

For now, we are not accepting credit card payments directly. We are having payment processors like Paypal, handle that for us. How different is a Paypal chargeback from the chargeback on those credit cards? So if a Buyer pays with the funds in his Paypal account and then falsely files a chargeback with Paypal stating that it was not him who made the payment in the first place, will Paypal simply ignore whatever we have as proof with us on our website, deduct our account of the funds and simply return it to the Buyer?

 

Once a Buyer releases payment, a seller can request for a withdrawal. Consider that by the time the Buyer has filed a chargeback, that the Seller has withdrawn his share of the money. This is paid from the company's Business account. So in this case, does it mean that Paypal is going to deduct amount from company's Business account, when they receive a chargeback? (which would be completely wrong as the amount held in company's Business account could be the amount unrelated the payment received from the Buyer). Note that the seller has been paid off already. Any funds in the company's Business account is a result of other transactions going on in the website.

 

I'm going to break this down.

 

How different is a Paypal chargeback from the chargeback on those credit cards?

 

Paypal has a different set of rules and they adhere to those rules PRECISELY.  No wiggle room at all.  The rules are encoded in the User agreement, which is under the "Legal agreements" link at the bottom of this page.

 

One of their rules is - they don't provide any protection for buyers or seller on virtual items.  None at all.

 

That would suggest to me that any buyer who files a claim should be turned down on the basis that there is no buyer protection - I'd call paypal on this to make sure.

 

If they allow the buyer claim you'll be out of luck as a seller - the no protection thing again.

 

 

So if a Buyer pays with the funds in his Paypal account and then falsely files a chargeback with Paypal stating that it was not him who made the payment in the first place, will Paypal simply ignore whatever we have as proof with us on our website, deduct our account of the funds and simply return it to the Buyer?

 

Paypal does not assume that a scam is in progress on any dispute, as far as I can tell.  If you allege a scam, you'll have to prove it, and I think the bar is set pretty high on that.

 

I would think a better way to handle it would be to make sure that there is no buyer protection (by calling Paypal) and then rely on that.

 

 

6. There are other websites out there who are working on similar principle as our website. How could possibly they be dealing with such similar issues? Please note that they are accepting payments only from "Verified" Buyers. So how is this going to help in avoiding chargebacks?

 

That's something that you have to ask them or find a lawyer that specializes in that area of the law.

 

There must be a forum for these guys - there's a forum for everybody these days, it seems - try a Google search.

 

 

7. I heard that instead of first going through the dispute in case of chargebacks, Paypal actually reverses the payment made by the Buyer to the receiver (in this case, our company's Paypal Business account). Is this true? If yes, this would impact our business in a negative manner. What can be done in this case to refrain Paypal from deducting our company account of the funds without first finishing the dispute process?

 

Not actually true, but the result is the same.

 

First of all, Paypal isn't the decider in cases of chargebacks - the credit cardcompany is.  Credit  card companies ALWAYS make a provisional decision in favour of the buyer, then they review the case and make their final decision.  During this period, the money will be taken out of your account.

 

There's nothing that you could do to stop this, short of getting a Court Order that Orders the Credit Card company not to take this money out and I don't see a Court making such an Order.

 

 

Hope that helps a bit.

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me_dev
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@surplusdealdude 

 

Did you know this? You are AWESOME !!! Thank you, thank you, thank you for such a detailed answer. I can't thank you enough for answering in such a detailed manner. 

 

One of your points really striked me very much: 

because, if the buyer didn't authroize the payment, they can argue that they never agreed to the terms 

 

That's a splendid observation, I would say. I could not help but agree to it instantly & that's a very valid point that you have brought up! I wish I already had someone in my network with whom I can discuss this. But unfortunately there's no one whom I know & seemingly I am the first one to deal with this kind of stuff. 

 

So based on your replies, I conclude that the CC company is going to act like a Judge and they will more than likely rule it in favor of the user... Hmm.. In that case I have hit upon an idea.. Why don't we confirm every payment made with the credit card company itself? But for that we would require Paypal to reveal to me, the credit card details that the user has entered and I don't see how that is possible. 

 

The only thing that I feel, can be done, is ask the user a phone number so that I can call and verify. In that case, how can I be sure that the user has not provided me with a temporary (changeable) phone number? I still have your point (because, if the buyer didn't authroize the payment, they can argue that they never agreed to the terms) ringing bells in my head. What can essentially be done to eliminate this problem. There must be a way that those other companies out there are following, otherwise they would not be in business for so long! 

 

So say, if I do not allow or accept payments using credit cards & just allow users to be able to pay with funds from their Paypal account. And as you have mentioned, they do not provide protection for non-shipped items. Well that's making me think about the advantages of using Paypal then! I guess I will have to call them to see if they can give me more details on this. 

 

I would really like to know your point of view, had you been in my shoes today. You want to accept payment but do not want to be cheated, by a scam artist who may have been a genuine buyer earlier. Maybe the buyer has really filed a false chargeback. How would you really accept payments in this case without getting ripped off? 

 

Look forward for your reply. 

 

Thank you very much. +1 Kudos to you.

 

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surplusdealdude
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I wish I already had someone in my network with whom I can discuss this. But unfortunately there's no one whom I know & seemingly I am the first one to deal with this kind of stuff.

 

You do have someone in your network - you just haven't made contact with them yet.

 

As I said, find the forum - this should get you started, the one at the top looks interesting;

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=&q=web+hosting+companies+forum&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B2GGGL_en_...

 

You don't have to trust 1 person if all of them are saying the same thing.

 


Why don't we confirm every payment made with the credit card company itself? But for that we would require Paypal to reveal to me, the credit card details that the user has entered and I don't see how that is possible.

 

you're right in that Paypal won't reveal the details to you.  And the CC company isn't set up to do that, anyway.

 

Besides, all that confirms is that the person has the right card number, not that they're the proper user.

 

 

 

The only thing that I feel, can be done, is ask the user a phone number so that I can call and verify. In that case, how can I be sure that the user has not provided me with a temporary (changeable) phone number?

 

Correct.  I don't think there is a way, short of cash on delivery, that you can ever be 100% safe.  You can nail the guy later with a time-delayed booby trap, but you can't prevent the crime.

 

 

So say, if I do not allow or accept payments using credit cards & just allow users to be able to pay with funds from their Paypal account.

 

Not allowed by Paypal's rules - if you take paypal, you take all the ways paypal will accept payment.

 

 

I would really like to know your point of view, had you been in my shoes today. You want to accept payment but do not want to be cheated, by a scam artist who may have been a genuine buyer earlier. Maybe the buyer has really filed a false chargeback. How would you really accept payments in this case without getting ripped off?

 

I wouldn't be selling that type of product online in the first place.Smiley Wink  You're going to get nailed sooner or later.

 

If I was selling it, I tend towards the nasty solutions - put a backdoor in the software and, when I get scammed, I'd go in and disable the software and melt down the guy's hard drive - but that's probably illegal.

 

There may not be any solution to this - it may just be the risk you have to take in this line of business.

 

There is a possible parrallel in what ebay sellers do with oerseas shipments.  They really can't afford shipping with DC - it's prohibitively expensive, so they do one of 2 things;

 

1. The insure their shipments - if the parcel doesn't arrive, they claim on the insurance.  Lloyds of London could probably write you a policy against loss and you could add the cost to the fee paid by the buyers.

 

OR

 

2. They self-insure.  The sellers add a certain amount of money to each overseas order ( or allocate it out of the sale price)  to a "cookie jar" savings.  When a parcel gets lost, they take the money out of the cookie jar.  In your case, if you can quantify the risk,  add $x to each order for the self-insurance.

 

 

Since this type of fraud is called wire fraud, you can also send a collection agency after the person, take them to court and even involve the police in some cases.   I would make a practice of nailing offenders to the wall and doing so punlically to discourage others.

 

 

HOWEVER, before doing all of this, you have to quantify the risk - most customers are honest and you may be trying to set up impenetrable defences that could turn honest buyers away over 1 twit that will cheat you once every 5 years for a $200 piece of software.  I've seen ebay sellers over-react this way as well and it tends to turn out badly.  If you treat customers like enemies, they will become enemies and that's no way to do business.

 

Ultimately, you have to reach a fair compromise.  I suggest that you delay implementing draonian methods until after the cc company renders its verdict - they may surprise you.

 

 

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