$2068 ROBBERY! Buyer Protection void if Seller refuses refund and sends a faulty replacement?

[BAyurveda]

I am the Buyer. 

I purchase this Oil Therapy Machine for my Business which costs close to $2068 from this unreasonable seller in California. The fact that they wanted a Money Order or Check (no Credit Card or PayPal) should have been a red flag. But NOT for stupid me!

Here is brief history:

06/21 Receive 1st Unit via FedEx
06/22 Product Failed / attempted many repairs as instructed by seller (no options for buyer)
06/24 Product Failed many times / attempted more repairs as instructed by seller
06/28 Seller agreed unit was defective and issued FedEx return Label. (no options for buyer) 
          ******** REQUEST FOR REFUND DENIED BY SELLER *******

        Quote from seller: "Without giving us the opportunity (of replacement), we cannot give the money back."
         Replacement Unit would be sent out after testing AND receipt of old unit.

07/02 seller issues Return Label at their cost

07/09 Product re-packaged for return and dropped off at FedEx by buyer
07/15 Seller received Defective unit

            I called PayPal support during this period to confirm that I am covered if the replacement unit does not work.

            I was advised "YES. It is still within 60 Days so you are covered"
07/22 Seller ships 2nd Unit as Replacement
07/28 2nd Unit Received and waiting to test
08/10 2nd Unit Test FAILED in 5 Mins (supposed to run for 50 Mins without problem
08/10 Contacted seller for REFUND again. Seller blames Buyer or "using it wrong"
         ******** REQUEST FOR REFUND DENIED AGAIN BY SELLER *******
08/11 Buyer Decision to open PayPal Dispute

I submitted all the e-mail and documents in relation to this. 

08/22  I return the 2nd Defective unit to Seller at my own cost. 

            SELLER HAS MOVED. NO LONGER AT THE ORIGINAL ADDRESS.

             Fedex Tracking 777035106256 . Returned to buyer. 

             How is this not a sign of FRAUD?

08/31 Resolution center denies my Claim and rules it in favor of the Seller (WHAT?)

           2 Appeals rejected because no new info?!?!?!

           I even talked to a supervisor and it was shocking to hear that she didn't even care about the facts.

          She said "your protection as a buyer is VOID because you accepted a replacment. It doesn't matter if it doesn't work as described. You could have denied the 2nd shipment. But you chose to accept the replacment. So there is nothing more we can do for you". 

          I asked as to where does it say this in the terms and she basically said that it was paypals decision and PayPal reserves the right to decide. 

          In other words, she is telling about the replacement terms are not listed in the User Agreement. It is just something they "decided". WHAT? I have never felt so royally disregarded and **bleep**. 

Apparently, PayPal (in their great wisDUMB) has decided this in favor of the Seller because the buyer (me) accepted a Replacement. Which doesn't WORK by the way! I would've taken a refund on Day 2 when this product failed. I asked multiple times in writing and on phone to the Buyer. I was DENIED everytime. My only option from the seller was to accept a replacement FIRST in order to get a refund. Obviously the unit does not work because it is a flawed design to begin with. Seller is no longer responidign to communications and has moved.

I have been robbed! I am out $2068 and I still have no solution for my business need. Now I will have to spend $3000 to get a competitor's model. Thank you for being the Accessory to Fraud PayPal. I hate you with passion! Criminals rejoice! Just send everyone a broken replacment. PayPal won't hold you liable for Fraud. 

We are now Phasing out PayPal from our 2 business which we use for purchasing and Credit Card processing. SQUARE, here we come!

[DPCreations]

Nothing more you can do.

Even if you had paid by credit card, protection would only be good for the initial purchase.

In business it's so important to evaluate sellers before making a purchase and then purchas a reputable branded product where you are confident the manufacturer will stand by the brand.

[lancelotme]

So what happens to the second machine(the replacement),did it come back to you.

You can try filing a chargeback or take them to small claims court if you can find them.

Just say the machine does not work and you tried to returnthe machine but  they have moved with no forwarding address.

You may win the chargeback and keep the lousy machine.

[BAyurveda]

@DPCeeations: I understand the lesson learned. Hindsight is always clearer. But said lesson has cost me $2000+ . And it is in fact for the 1st purchase, one singular product. PayPal didn't cut their losses. They didn't even care to read or understand the documents provided. They didn't care for the consumer. They just took the easy way out and threw policy in my face which by the way was NOT cited nor was it possible for them to reference even as their internal policy. It was strategically convenient for PayPal to push the loss to me instead of doing something about it. They could have easily held the seller liable for the bad product, seller would get it back and maybe resell it to someone else (if it actually worked). No one would be losing in that regard. And it would still be legitimatly covered under buyer protection. @lancelotme Yep, the 2nd unit came back to me last week. Got notes from FedEx on the box. 1st attempt failed. No such recipient. 2nd attempt. Contacted recipient via phone but no response. I know it was the correct address and everything because it was the exact same address where the first one was delivered to and accepted. Oh I forgot to mention, they were running this out of a Storage unit! I am sure that's part of the scam process. Just get another storage unit and move! But hey a chargeback huh. How does one go about that? I did buy this on PayPal Credit with 6 month financing. Small claims did cross my mind. However I am I'm Chicago and the sells I'm California. Plus I read somewhere that there is no effective way of enforcing the judgment even if I win the case. The seller can easily give me the same runaround even after all the hassle.

[lancelotme]

Paypal credit financed the deal,then there is no chargeback,thats only if you use the credit card.

sorry for your loss.may be fix it and resell as a used machine

[DPCreations]

PayPal is a business with a focus on providing a service which generates profit for the corporation.  To do so PayPal must follow strict procedures and polcies.  PayPal isn't about adjuisting polices and procedures to give a member a helping hand special consideration.  That would be an inconsitent and unpredictable business plan.  It's not even about whether PayPal polcies are good or not; they are just policies and part of the accepted Terms of Use.

PayPal provides extensive polcies to product users, also.  It is the user's responsibility to read and understand these polcies before using the PayPal system.

Itis the buyer's responsbiility to evaluate the seller to make sure the seller meets standards acceptable to the risk level of the buyer.  PayPal can't stand in for good buyer judgement.

[lancelotme]

@BAyurveda

she chose this seller over a competitor based on price ,not knowing they were using a storage unit as an office /warehouse and then moved away/

The difference in price helps her save almost $1000,but the machine is defective.

Hind sight is 20/20,next time for this kind of money,check out the seller,find out from the manufacturer if he/she is a registered dealer,?

where did they get their merchandise from?

Are they returns,refurbished,used ? 

[BAyurveda]

---

@lancelotme wrote:

@BAyurveda

she chose this seller over a competitor based on price ,not knowing they were using a storage unit as an office /warehouse and then moved away/

The difference in price helps her save almost $1000,but the machine is defective.

Hind sight is 20/20,next time for this kind of money,check out the seller,find out from the manufacturer if he/she is a registered dealer,?

where did they get their merchandise from?

Are they returns,refurbished,used ? 

---

Thank you for your understanding @lancelotme. This is starting to feel like therapy now 🙂

That is a very accurate assessment. I simply chose the 2nd most expensive machine, because of the $1000 price difference. Which is significant when considering the gamble. Although it is worth mentioning that blissfulmindspa.com is the top search listing on Google when searching for "Automatic Shirodhara Machine". This is the scheming seller that I am referring to who does not even list a business address or pricing on the website. Before sending the 1st unit back, I did ask PayPal of this seller's reputation and I was told that they couldn't get into any particulars due to privacy reasons but acknowledged that they were a known Seller and that I was protected under their so-called Buyer Protection (NOT).

Unfortunately, there are not a lot of choices for "Automatic Shirodhara Machine". There are just a couple of people who have invented such a product out here in the US to fulfill a specific therapy need for the growing Ayurvedic market. So this is not mass produced equipment. And you are dealing with the inventors directly. So there is no real way to trace their reputation, selling history, or even the condition of the equipment that they are selling. You just have to resort to their sales pitch on the phone and hope that they will be professional enough to stand by their "invention" and accept the design flaws as they are recognized by the consumer. 

As a business owner myself, I gave the benefit of doubt and spent hours and days trying to repair and tweak the many possible issues of the first unit as instructed by the Seller over the phone. I simply had to give up because A) I had done my due diligence and recognized that this is nothing but a design flaw, B) The reliability factor was non-existent after all the fiddling that was necessary for the day to day operation and C) Simply did not have the time or patience left to fix the Seller's problem for them. I just wanted it taken back and issued a refund. 

It was a shock when I was told via e-mail "Without giving us the opportunity, we cannot give the money back."

[sharpiemarker]

I sympathize however, it's true though:

Claim Resolution Process:

Once a Dispute has been escalated to a Claim, PayPal will make a final decision in favor of the buyer or the Seller. You may be asked to provide receipts, third party evaluations, police reports, or anything else that PayPal specifies. PayPal retains full discretion to make a final decision in favor of the buyer or the Seller based on any criteria PayPal deems appropriate. In the event that PayPal makes a final decision in favor of the buyer or Seller, each party must comply with PayPal’s decision. PayPal will generally require the buyer to ship an item that the buyer claims is SNAD back to the Seller (at the buyer’s expense), and PayPal will generally require a Seller to accept the item back and refund the buyer the full purchase price plus original shipping costs. In the event a Seller loses a Claim, the Seller will not receive a refund on his or her PayPal fees associated with the transaction. If you lose a SNAD Claim because the item you sold is counterfeit, you will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you may not receive the item back (it will be destroyed).

[sharpiemarker]

It is possible to make a dispute directly with PayPal Credit but you have 60 days from the date of the billing statement they first billed you for the transaction.  Their terms are much broader than a PayPal dispute.

https://www.paypal.com/selfhelp/article/FAQ2834

Also, when you have an issue with a particular PayPal credit product, it's better to deal direct with that dept because you can get a better result than the gen pop PayPal reps.  Google the credit product name and it should bring up the credit products' own dedicated site.