should this refund be allowed?

[petrolhead]

hi

i advertised a single refurbished wheel on ebay, in excellent conditon, and described as no kerb damage, no cracks, ad no weld repairs, thats it, dead simple.

a buyer contacted me, insisited on a deal away from ebay to get it even cheaper than it was, and insisited on paypal direct  method of payment.

i sold the wheel to him for £50 plus £23.50 for pareclling and shipping costs.

he recieved the wheel, and then decided to open a case against me on the grounds of significantly not as described!

i couldn't believe it, the wheel was superb, and then i started getting text messages warning me of his intentions to get a refund no matter what.

i argued that he should send evidence to me and to paypal to prove that it was not as described, but oddly this has never been enforced by paypal, WHY IS THAT?

HOW CAN PAYPAL DECIDE A CLAIM OF NOT AS DESCRIBED, WITHOUT ANY ACTUAL EVIDENCE OF THE GROUNDS OF THE CLAIM?

Now, i relented because the text messages were becoming harassing, and i could see paypal deciding entirely in the buyers favour unless i did something, so after refuting the claim for some time, asking for proof and evidence that never came, i offered a partial refund which was the actual purchase fee of £50, IF he returned the wheel to me at his own expense.

the offer was rapidly snapped up ad accepted, and paypal followed immediatley by stating this claim will soon close and the refund made, BUT the buyer now claims that he will take the refund, AND keep the wheel, as he refuses to send it back to me, and boasts that he has both of them!

So,   can paypal allow this to happen?

why does paypal not insisit of any evidence or proof of a description claim?

am i going to lose £50 and the wheel?

please advise

petrolhead

[kernowlass]

Normally if and only if paypal finds in favour of the buyer then the buyer has to return the item back to you trackable to prove delivery before they get refunded.

[petrolhead]

This is what I thought previously, but from within the resolution centre, it would appear as PayPal are going to issue the refund anytime now, and there has been no efforts whatsoever to return the wheel. Surely this isnt right

[kernowlass]

No it does not sound right. Why not give paypal a call and state you are willing to give a refund when you have the item back again.

Click on the words "Contact us" at the bottom of paypal pages > click on the "call us" option on the left (fees "may" apply so check the cost with your phone tariff first, as you sometimes have to wait a while to connect).

When you get through don't select any options just hang on till you get transfered to an agent.

[Ndaa75]

This seems to be an issue with paypal acting as judge and jury - plus you pay them a fee for them to treat you like this! My suggestion moving forward is to avoid using paypal where possible to avoid yourself becoming the victim of a fraudster who paypal will protect without any evidence whatsoever. Avoiding paypal will then put he onus on the receiver to claim via the SGA. Just make sure when you sell valuable items you take pictures of the product you're sending and the packaging it's wrapped up in. Send insured to make sure you're covered in the event something goes wrong or better still get the buyer to arrange collection at their own cost which will mean the responsibility of any insurance claims which will cover damage or goods that have gone missing in the post, will become the responsibility of the buyer - not you.

[petrolhead]

yeah i know what you mean.

i had to call Paypal in the end, as i was getting no answers through the resolution section, which still now appears to tell me that the buyer in this case has accepted my partial refund, under the terms that he returned the wheel in exchange for the initial purchase price,

however, this phone call, with Emma, of paypal disputes dep't, informed me that paypal themselves have overuled this, and instigated a full refund upon receipt of tracking number to verify that the wheel is indeed being returned to me.

BUT, i have to say, i'm convinced!

plus, i admit i did get a very annoyed,  because i was told in this conversation with Emma,  in her own customer services roundabout way, that in fact paypal offers no protection to a seller whatsoever. Absolutely nothing, not a single syllable of what a seller tells them, the sellers advert text itself, the sellers photos within  the advert, and any evidence offered within the dispute itself, is even considered in a disagreement such as this, 

the only thing paypal take into any consideration at all, is ther BUYERS statement.

essentially, any idiot buyer, can claim something is not as described, and as the seller, the point is 100% indefencable.

Paypal do not want, nor will they take into consideration, ANY evidence to dispute the buyers claim.

This is all true, and from the horses mouth as it were, 

AS A SELLER, WE ARE SCREWED

the buyer can make uop anything they like, and the seller can't defend it.

as you quite rightly point out, we the seller pay for the privelige, and have no support at all, the buyer, who uses it fee free, can behave in any manner they chose with the full support of ebay and paypal money back guarantee,  

and quite frankly, I find this disgusting.......

[Ndaa75]

If Paypal refund before the wheel is sent and the buyer doesn't send the wheel then you have serious grounds to report Paypals conduct as would amount to colluding in fraud. furthermore I would be wasting no time to get the police involved. If that doesn't work get a CCJ issued against the buyer and if that don't work, enforce it.

[Ndaa75]

....and remember Paypal have no legal authority whatsoever, they are not the law.

[petrolhead]

WELL, 

I'VE BEEN SCREWED BY PAYPAL!

Even though a telephone conversation with Emma in paypal CS told me categorically that my offer of a partial refund if the wheel was returned, had been retracted, and paypal themselves had escalated the disute, leaving one final option, which was a full refund upon receipt of a verifiable tracking number proving that the wheel was on its way back to me.

Instead, i had an email this morning informing me that the partial refund amount was removed from my account and given back to the buyer, who will also be keeping the wheel.

according to paypal, i have no right to appeal this, and that is that.

i tried in vain to speak to someone in higher authority, and went from todays Maria to a mananger Jo, but i'm guessing that the length of timwe i was on hold for, Jo had a full debrief of my current attitude and complaint, and was more than ready to repeat the same disgsting news to me over and over again with one exception,

an admittance that Emma had wrongly advised me in the first place about the refund situation, but even this has left me no angle to appeal or course for redress,

Jo brought the shutters down basicly, and i'm suppoosed to get used to the idea that Paypal have allowed a customer to keep my property, and his money back.

I'm left with no option but to retrieve the wheel, or the money myself, and we all know how confrontational thats going to be!

As a seller, you're 100% unprotected from unscrupulous ebayers, and scam sham buyers who know that paypal will side with the buyers claim, EVERY single time without questioning whatever they claim.

I WILL NO LONGER SELL VIA PAYPAL, NEVER AGAIN,

IT MAKE NO COMMERCIAL SENSE WHATSOEVER TO BE SENDING YOUR GOODS UP AND DOWN THE COUNTRY, ONLY TO HAVE SOME FRAUDSTER  MAKE UP ANY REASON OR EXCUSE NOT TO HAVE TO PAY FOR IT.

PAYPAL ADMITTED THAT THEY NEITHER REQUIRE OR PERSUE ANY EVIDENCE OF A NOT AS DESCRIBED CLAIM, SO WHAT CHANCE DO YOU HAVE AS A SELLER, EVEN WITH PERFECT GOODS?

NONE!

THATS HOW MUCH.......

[Ndaa75]

Who has told you the buyer is keeping the wheel?