PayPal pending payment
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I would like to hear from someone at PayPal the answers to several specific questions relating to the pending payment policy. I have read the various threads on this, and the relevant section of the Terms of Service Agreement, but these are questions not answered elsewhere.
FIrst, the background. Like so many others here, I was caught by surprise when payment was held up for an item I sold on eBay. The item sold for $455 and because it is heavy and bulky, the shipping charge was $225 (in the actual fact, it cost me more than that amount to pack and ship and I ate the difference). The winning bidder paid immediately via PayPal. PayPal immediately marked this as a "pending" payment. The item was shipped less than 48 hours after the auction closed and delivered yesterday. I supplied the tracking information to PayPal/eBay as instructed. The payment still shows simply as "pending" and when I click on "Details" I am told that status applies for another 14 days, OR 3 days after PayPal can determine that the item was delivered, OR 3 days after the buyer leaves positive feedback.
There is no way for me to verify that PayPal/eBay knows now that the item was, in fact, delivered yesterday. There is no way to know when and if a change in pending status has occurred. The policy is ambiguous as to whether delivery even matters for an eBay auction item, or if only positive buyer feedback will release the funds in less than 21 days.
QUESTION 1: If the item was sold pursuant to an eBay auction, is the pending status changed when the SOONER OF or LATER OF the two listed events occur: provable delivery or positive buyer feedback? How can I verify that PayPal now knows the item was delivered and, therefore, that the 3-day clock has started to count down?
PayPal positions itself as the most convenient way for a seller to accept payments, especially on eBay transactions. I was charged a $20+ fee for this transaction. I had to front the $225 shipping charge. I now have to wait an arbitrary amount of time for payment, with no feedback from PayPal as to status before or after the buyer submitted his PayPal payment transaction. In the very best case, the funds will hit my bank account two weeks from when the auction closed because of the holiday weekend.
QUESTION 2: Why is this good for me as a seller? You are charging me premium transaction fees, what service am I AS A SELLER getting in return for this policy and the fees charged?
The most basic tenet of contract law is that the parties have to agree to the terms in order for there to be a contract. PayPal's Terms of Service Agreement relating to pending payments is hopelessly vague, to the degree that I question that it constitutes a contract. It would not be a valid contract for me to say, for example, "I can do whatever I want for any reason" and for you to agree, and for me to then take your car and your house. I could argue that your agreement was stupidity on your part (which is, essentially, PayPal's response to sellers in the various threads and is vaguely insulting), but I could not defend such capricious actions in court based on that "contract." Particularly in a dependent situation like this
The PayPal pending payment policy does not, for example, let me know, as a seller, whether I or any given transaction are subject to being pended, what I can do to prevent it, or what specific criteria PayPal will use. PayPal relies on terms like "high risk" that clearly mean something very different to the sellers who have spoken out in this forum than they mean to PayPal. In no way would I, as a reasonable seller, read the text of the TOSA and interpret it as meaning what PayPal is, in fact, doing. You are doing things that are not reasonable interpretations that a reasonable seller would be expected to conclude are consistent with the TOSA's language. They appear to be arbitrary and capricious and unrelated to the stated policy.
In short, a seller "agreeing" to the TOSA can have no basis for understanding what it now turns out PayPal means by those words.
QUESTION 3: How does the TOSA, regarding pending payment holds, constitute a valid contract, given that you provide no way for the seller to know what he/she is agreeing to and that reasonable sellers clearly think you are interpreting this language in ways opposite to the way they understand it?
Given that PayPal relies on its "sole discretion," there is an implied obligation for the policy and its enforcement to rationally relate to its purpose.
As with so many others, there is no evidence in my case of any kind of a problem. This was a personal sale, but I own a company that accepts credit cards based in large part on my own credit history, and have had no problem with approvals for those transactions from banks, or any problems with any specific transactions. There is no history of complaints against me personally or my company, I have no criminal history, no financial fraud, solid credit rating, bank account has been verified. In other words, PayPal has reached a decision about my "risk" that is opposite what other financial institutions that provide similar services have concluded.
QUESTION 4: How does the pending payment discretion policy of PayPal rationally relate to actual risks to buyers, its putative purpose? What does the term "high likelihood" mean anyway - 50%? 10%? 1%? What statistical evidence does PayPal have that the criteria used are predictive of a "high likelihood" (whatever that means) of buyer dissatisfaction? Is there any such evidence at all that eBay frequency is a reliable predictor, or is this just someone's guess?
Clearly, this policy benefits PayPal financially. You get the benefit of interest on the funds while they are in pending status. It is like travellers checks - the financial institution makes money on the float. Therefore, PayPal has set itself up with a clear conflict of interest, between fairly interpreting ambiguous or discretionary sections of the TOSA, e.g., what constitutes "risk" to buyers, and what is financially beneficial for PayPal.
QUESTION 5: Will PayPal remove this conflict by paying interest on the funds held? If not, how can you claim to not have an egregious conflict of interest in your unilateral interpretation of the TOSA?
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There may be help yet!!!!!!! FORGET USING PP!!!
http://www.ehow.com/how_5082383_use-google-checkout-ebay-auctions.htmlTRY THIS!
GOOGLE CHECKOUT, HMM I wonder why Ebay has banned it????
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because paypal and ebay is the same company
And i noticed my member level here says new advisor.. I IN NO WAY SUPPORT PAYPAL i just posted alot (mainly in this topic)
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I agree. I have also borrowed money just to ship the items I have sold. I find it completely absurd, and any time I call to ask for help, I am directed to same page on PayPal that gives the same vague information that doesn't help me at all.
Based on all of this, I will be discontinuing my PayPal account as soon as my sales are completed and my funds are (finally) released.
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When I fist came across the issue I WAS BENT OUT OF SHAP FOR A MINUTE,then I STATED LOOKING AT THE BIGGER PICTURE , It has a way of keeping the ebay community in check as far as who we are dealing with in the long run ,which is a good thing. LIKE I always say onward through the fog. Remember everyday is a gift
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This is a good thing? Your right, me stressing on weather or not the guy that just bought my laptop is going to do a chargeback when he receives it or not is a good thing. Or being out a $1000 laptop and the cost of shipping while I wait for PayPal to pay me, yeah thats a good thing. I have 100% feedback and have been an Ebay member for years.
But this time I'm done. Im not shipping the Laptop, Im giving the refund and I'm done with eBay and PayPal.
Amanda, Why no replies? Usually when someone feels they are right they fight tooth and nail to get their point across, why are there no replies except for one on this thread?
Why do you (Amanda, PayPal Ebay) not answer any legit questions? And why do you hold funds when eBay policy ststes that I am not required to ship until funds are CLEARED. Should we just all wait the 21 days to ship out sales? Acording to your policies that is what we are SUPPOSED to do. I think you all have some questions to answer.
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The silence from PP is deafening. I recently sold a graphics card and finally PP released the hold about 16 days without a word why. The item was delivered but no buyer feedback, it is optional after all and it seems big warehouse buyers don't, and the hold was lifted arbitrarily. I am glad of course but the whole payment hold policy seems very arbitrary and in PP's favour. I have a $1500 desktop in UPS and the moment and I am nervous that at 20 days the buyer will have buyers remorse, drops it off the back of a truck or whatever and I am **bleep**ed.
A buyer has no incentive whatever to give the seller a positive feedback as they have a nice 21 day window to back out. I am looking for alternatives. I also think we should petition PP as there appears to be quite a groundswell against this policy. Do executive management really know how much business they could lose from this policy?
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@NetSpace wrote:This is a good thing? Your right, me stressing on weather or not the guy that just bought my laptop is going to do a chargeback when he receives it or not is a good thing. Or being out a $1000 laptop and the cost of shipping while I wait for PayPal to pay me, yeah that's a good thing. I have 100% feedback and have been an Ebay member for years.
But this time I'm done. Im not shipping the Laptop, Im giving the refund and I'm done with eBay and PayPal.
Amanda, Why no replies? Usually when someone feels they are right they fight tooth and nail to get their point across, why are there no replies except for one on this thread?
Why do you (Amanda, PayPal Ebay) not answer any legit questions? And why do you hold funds when eBay policy states that I am not required to ship until funds are CLEARED. Should we just all wait the 21 days to ship out sales? According to your policies that is what we are SUPPOSED to do. I think you all have some questions to answer.
I could not agree more with your statements. I do not sell in that price range-in fact I am a casual buyer and seller-but I would not ship a computer worth $1000 and be at risk for a fraudulent buyer to take advantage. My opinion is that in this period of joblessness, rising interest rates, fees on basically everything we do--the spammers and scammers are out in droves. This information about how to scam eBay sellers is catching on and eBay does not care one little bit about their buyers or sellers.
Additionally eBay and PayPal remain quiet--quite frankly PayPal India and any of the other customer service representatives cannot keep their stories straight either. I don't think they have the answers and if they do have legitimate answers to our questions they refuse to stray from their eBay dictated speech. Why has not one single PayPal person spoken up about the fact that they continue to make interest the longer they hold our funds?
A good link that I check daily for updated eBay/PayPal news throughout the day along with their stock prices and international news is http://www.techinvestornews.com/eBay/page-one.html You can search through their history and read articles from Forbes, Financial Times etc--they post the link. This is how I discovered the 2002 class action suit that eBay settled in 2004 and that last month they lost a case in Paris for the second time to Louis Vuitton.
Knowledge is Power!
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@maxtrax4u wrote:When I fist came across the issue I WAS BENT OUT OF SHAP FOR A MINUTE,then I STATED LOOKING AT THE BIGGER PICTURE , It has a way of keeping the eBay community in check as far as who we are dealing with in the long run ,which is a good thing. LIKE I always say onward through the fog. Remember everyday is a gift
I am pleased for you that you maintain such a positive attitude about life in general. Nevertheless how long have you been selling on eBay? This hold by eBay/PayPal is beyond being a terrible policy. We as sellers were at one time able to leave honest feedback for buyers which was essential as we could alert other sellers by leaving negative feedback for non paying bidders/buyers--I relied on this before accepting a bid and would check their feedback. We were basically self governing ourselves but still had the option of reporting to eBay non paying buyers before leaving negative feedback. You are absolutely right though--this is a very manipulative way to keep the eBay community in check--sounds like we do not have an opinion of our own and cannot manage our affairs on our own--sounds like a communist theory--control the masses. The bottom line is just that--PayPal's bottom line. The user agreement with PayPal states in fine print and buried in legalese that any interest that accrues on money held is Paypal's money. We waive our right to any interest. Do the math--hold enough funds, float them for 21 days and pocket the interest. It is not enough that their fee structure is out of control but now they found a new way to take our money?
There is also a class action that is being prepared for filing--I posted the email I received from the administrator of the letssuepaypal dot com web page including all of the contact information on all of the active forums regarding this hold policy and PayPal--Big Brother--removed every last one of these posts--so yes again this is how they keep us under control--this is their forum and they can do what they want.
Additionally I do not see how this benefits the buyers either. eBay/PayPal just lost another law suit to Louis Vuitton for promoting ways to purchase LV's that are fake.
I am a collector of Swarovski jewelry and it is expensive. I searched today and found so many China sellers listing for auction and BIN's for about $2.00--and representing these items as authentic Swarovski pieces--not just using swarovski crystals.
I buy a pair of these $2.00 earrings and discover they are false but eBay lets these sellers keep selling.
I am sorry but I do not see any good in this--I have moved on to other auction sites, Amazon.com, Craig's List and Google checkout.
I continue to post on these forums as I try to offer support.
I wish you continued good luck with PayPal.
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I totally agree with the OP. It's why I came to the forum.
I'm a "verified" "premium" member. I've never had any issues with Paypal. They have my bank account, and my credit card.
I just bought something I needed delivered as fast as possible. I specifically paid extra to get overnight shipping so that this weekend wouldn't ruin the delivery date. But today (4 days after paying) I got an email from the seller saying he wouldn't send it until Paypal took their "hold" off my payment. So I've effectively paid an extra $10 to have my item sat on until it made no difference.
Paypal is really messing up here. If there's no way any member can get as much "trust" as EVERY OTHER WEBSITE ON EARTH, they are going to suffer for it.
Seriously, name me a website, anywhere, that will process your money instantly, but will refuse to continue the transaction for another week?
EDIT: I notice a lot of sellers are angry too. So you can see this angers both sides (depending on who takes the fall), do sellers hold on sending, or do they send them out and worry about their own payment? Either way, a buyer or seller is angry, and Paypal wins.

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