PayPal condoning criminal activity ???

[Spiderate]

I've just been conned by a professional looking website being operated by a now obvious scammer. I paid with PayPal.

Subsequently discovered on the internet many people being duped by the same scammer and at least one who had raised a claim via PayPal to get his money back. PayPal refused because the goods were "intangible" but you have to conclude that at that stage PayPal had been made aware of a scammer using their PayPal system and taking money off their PayPal customers but have done nothing about it.

The same thing has just happened to me, just because we were buying a service and downloadable goods they are classed as "intangible" and the claim has gone against me.

Buyer Protection ??? Not for my money !  ...  and  the  scammer  is  allowed  to  continue  to  steal  more  money  off  PayPal  customers.

[PayPal_Wayne]

Hi there Spiderate,

When it is reported to us that our system is being used to scam customers we will of course investigate and take action where needed. It is difficult for me to speak on this on here about this as I don't see any of the details of the investigation. I can only assume it is ongoing.

With regard to the actual payment made by you. Regrettably not every single payment is covered under our protections. There are some types of payments not covered. I've included the portion of the User Agreement that covers these payments. For the full list of payments not covered you can click here.

"13.3 What type of payments are eligible for re-imbursement under PayPal Buyer Protection?

a. PayPal Buyer Protection only applies to PayPal payments for certain tangible, physical goods that can be posted. Payments for the following are not eligible for re-imbursement under PayPal Buyer Protection:

• intangible items

• services....."

Hopefully the link above helps with your future payments you make.

Wayne

[Spiderate]

Thanks Wayne

I read the user agreement during the dispute which found against me. Agreeing with it was impossible. A service or intangible can easily be adjudged as "legal" and "being as advertised" by anyone, or any group, with more than an ounce of common sense and no hidden agendas !

At least one other person I've found warned PayPal about this scammer earlier this year and obviously nothing has happened. The victims, PayPal customers, remain is a state of loss whereas the scammer is left to his own devices and allowed to use PayPal to steal more money from PayPal customers.

This case involved rawdownloads.com and the parent company thirdlinemedia.com. The fact that neither website included addresses or telephone numbers should have warned me off so I'm holding my hands up to some degree of stupidity here, but the websites look professional enough. The promise was free legal downloads of music and movies for a one off payment and no P2P file sharing. Once they'd taken payment all that was on offer were instruction on how to join either P2P file sharing websites or download websites that charged money. How the **bleep** can that be "as advertised" whether it's tangible or not ?????

I'm now having to have them traced through their IP adresses on e-mail, companies house and trading standards.

Cheers

Steve (spiderate)

[PayPal_Wayne]

Hi Spiderate,

The main reason for us not being able to investigate cases for services or intangible items is we can't verify if the goods paid for have been received or not.

From reading your post below it is evident that you did not received what was originally described to you but legally we are not able to investigate on your behalf. As it is part of the User Agreement that we don't cover services or intangible items WE could be sued if we were to investigate, we would be breaking our own User Agreement Spiderate.

It is for this reason any cases for services or intangible items have to close right away.

I hope this information helps you

Wayne

[Spiderate]

Hi  Wayne  and  thanks  for  the  response.

I'm  afraid  it  doesn't  help  and  just  increases  the  frustration.

If  your  user  agreement  is  legally  stopping  you  protect  your  customers  and  is  offering  criminals  the  protection  then  there's  something  wrong  with  it  and  it  should  be  changed.

"We can't verify if the goods paid for have been received or not"

Really ?  What  does  it  take  in  a  circumstance  such  as  this ?  How  about  asking  Mr  PayPal  to  log  onto  Rawdownloads.com,  pay  his  £25  by  PayPal  and  then  we'll  see  whether  or  not  the  goods  ( as promised )  have  been  received !  Words  like  "blatant"  and  "obvious"  might  lose  some  of  their  mystique and  with  a  fair  wind  we  might  change  a  "can't  verify"  to  a  "can  very  easily  verify" !

Kind  Regards

Steve

[bigtim]

Wayne - Steve

I understand (to some extent) that it may be difficult for you to investigate. This doesnt however explain how my claim for a fake purchase made from a Paypal verified seller was eventually judged in my favour, yet the seller is still lining Paypals pockets.

Briefly - I received fakes. I put in a claim. Paypal ruled in favour of the seller. I decided to stick with it, as I knew I was in the right. Paypal eventually agreed that the product was a fake. Paypal reversed the claim and I got my money back.

Problem here is that PP implicitly confirmed that I was sold a fake by one of their verified sellers, by asking me to destroy the product in return for my money back. Paypal know who this seller is. I also made them aware of at least 6 other websites used by this seller, to sell fake goods, yet almost 6 months later, the seller is still in business, sporting the PayPal logo. The logo, as Im sure you are aware provided us PP users with an element of trust and confidence, yet it in reality provides nothing of the sort.

So why are PP allowing this seller to keep ripping people off ??

Wayne - Here are the sites linked to (they all use the same email address (REMOVED SO PAYPAL DONT NEED TO ACT)  'should you have a problem'!)  the seller I found sporting your logo. My experience was with 'monsterdruk.com'.

AT THIS POINT I LISTED 8 WEBSITES THAT PP SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWING TO USE THEIR PRODUCT. PP HOWEVER WONT ALLOW ME TO POST THESE, WHICH IS A SHAME, AS THEY ARE STILL SHIPPING FAKES WITH THE HELP OF PP. SORRY FOLKS. YET ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF PP HELP...

Please take the time to look through your records and come back to us. Failure to do so will reinforce the thinking that PP are good (ish) with words, but poor with actions.

Look forward to hearing back from you..   Rgds - BigTim

[PayPal_barry]

Hey BigTim, thanks for the update. Please be assured that once we get confirmation of a seller trading counterfeits on eBay or off-eBay sites. There is an immediate closure of their accounts. We do have the facility to link accounts with many details. But sometimes fraudsters keep setting up sites and PayPal accounts as soon as we shut them down.  This is also an issue with any other trading or payment processing site. However, PayPal’s interest in this is sharpened by the fact that under our Buyer Protection Policy, we guarantee a payout. Regardless of whether that seller has funds or not. We would ask that you and all other honest PayPalers/eBayers keep us up to date on the activities of potentially fraud sites and we will hopefully make strides in ridding the system of fraudsters and con-men for men. Best or Luck.

[bigtim]

Dear Paypal - If you have previous complaints of said seller, why dont you investigate their activities properly and STOP them ripping off other unfortunate paypal users. I recently purchased a fake from one of your verified (whatever that means??) sellers. I invested almost 30 hours of my time to finally get you to pay up. Indeed you clearly agree that the product was a fake, as you insisted I destroy it before you paid out. In addition, I have made you aware of at least 6 other websites linked with this fraudster, yet 3 weeks on, you are still allowing them to use you as a means of payment. Anything for a few dollars eh?

I can ONLY conclude therefore that you are indeed 'condoning (indeed encouraging) criminal activity'. I would love to hear your explanation as to an alternative conclusion. PP are contributing hugely to the proliferation of fake goods world-wide, yet clearly dont care. Shame on you all.

If you are an organisation who really, really care, why dont you do something to demonstrate this? Words are unhelpful. Some physical action is required.

For all your frustrated users, might I suggest you rummage through the paypal smallprint. If you are able to demonstrate that the seller is in breach of their PP contract, then technically PP are in breach of contract with you and should rule in your favour. Also talk with Trading Standards, The Financial Ombudsman and in my case Customs & Excise, as the fraudster is also misrepresenting the value and contents of the packages they send. I have also made pp aware of this, so again fair to assume that are perfectly happy to be involved in criminal activity.

I have used PP many times as I genuinely believed in the 'Buyer Protection' stuff. The reality however, is that it doesnt really exist.

Buyer Beware

[Delmonti]

Paypal do work with criminals on a dialy basis...... and even promote this to the scammers by doing NOTHING to prevent it. Instead they take it out on customers. 

There are alternatives to PayPal, start using them.

[Delmonti]

Hi, Concerning this "chargeback" scam that PayPal are promoting to UK Scammers.

1. When are you going to stop this amoral behaviour?

2. When are you going to answer the tens of thousands of victims (remember them, they used to be customers)

Just in case no-one knows what this is about here we go....

If you sell something on ebay and the buyer pays with PalPal did you know all they need to do once they have received the item is lodge a "Unauthorised Transaction" payment and PayPal will remove the money from your account? THis can happen upto 3 months after the sale..... even if the money is in your bank account.

And dont think they will answer your calls or emails, they simnply sell the debt onto a debt collecting agency and say there is nothing for them to answer to.

I have a Police investigation going on into this and PayPal think they are so big it they do not need to answer the police.

You have been warned.