PayPal protecting the scammers and not the victims

[D_Alex]

A few weeks ago I bought a phone from an online shop based in China. When it arrived the phone turned out to be counterfeit.

Even the software on it was pirated because the Google apps would show me a message saying the product was unlicensed everytime I tried to open them. Edit: Not to mention the phone also came pre-loaded with malware, I found out this later. It would automatically subscribe your number to a bunch of chinese services and would charge whatever you had in your SIM card.

I couldn't do anything with this phone because every app would tell me it was pirated. Couldn't even open app store to download anything.

So I've tried to contact the seller and he kept ignoring my messages, the live chat support is fake, it's not a real person answering and even there I was ignored. So I've opened a PayPal dispute, gave them some time so we could work directly but no help, they also ignored me like a scammer would.

So I escalated this to PayPal and was hopefull they could solve this for me since the scammer had no interest in talking to me. I've submitted everything as evidence, tracking number, order information and even the package that they sent me. The seller never responded in the 10 day period, like the typical scammer so I was hopefull PayPal could show me their "buyer protection" they advertise so much about.

But no, they tell me to send them the phone to their address and that's it. ARE YOU SERIOUS? The seller has ignored me everytime I've tried to contact them, instead of defending themselves when I escalated this to PayPal they just ignored some more and proved they were scammers and now I'm supposed to send a bunch of scammers the phone and be responsible for shipping costs, and if and only IF they receive the goods I can get a refund? Are you kidding me? Is this an early April Fools joke or what? What the hell kind of "buyer protection" is this? You have gotten really bad PR in the past for this crappy costumer support and looks like you haven't learned. I am NOT gonna pay even more than I already paid on shipping and handling to send these scammers the expensive counterfeit brick they sold me because I will be out on money and a brick. This is unnacceptable, what else can I do to get mymoney back?

[kernowlass]

@D_Alex

Firstly if its fake then the onus is on you to prove that by getting a written company headed letter from a shop / company that sells / makes the item OR trading standards etc.  If you can provide that proof then you don't have to return the item. As you have up to 180 days to open a dispute that gives you plenty of time to do so.

Secondly your best bet is to read up on paypal buyer protection before you start buying so you know what is and what is not offered.
In the event of a dispute you nearly always have to return the item back to the seller so you bear in mind possible return trackable costs before you buy from that seller / item / country.

Paypal state this >>

PayPal is not obliged to reimburse you for any costs that you incur to comply with any of PayPal’s requests for cooperation for the purpose of resolving the problem (including, without limitation, costs that you incur to return a SNAD item to the Payment Recipient or another party as PayPal requests), although sometimes it may reimburse these costs.

Although they will compensate you for some of the cost if you have activated this before the transaction .....
Log in > benefits in the blue band > return shipping on us.

However if you funded your Paypal payment via a credit card then contact your card issuer and they may help you with a chargeback?

[D_Alex]

So simply put, buyer protection is not actually buyer protection because I have to return the items to the seller. Oh wow great, I would have done that if the seller wasn't a scammer and ignored all my attempts to contact him directly. 

I'm not gonna pay shipping costs to return a fake to a scammer which probably isn't gonna accept the package so that PayPal gives him the money and not me and then the package will just be sent back to me and I'll be out even more money.

About the evidence, I gave them all that was necessary. That is why they didn't ask for further documentation before deciding the case. The phone itself and it's pirated software advised me that it was counterfeit everytime I turned it on. Otherwise what more can I get as evidence? Contact the manufacturer of the phone? They're gonna ask me to send the phone over to them and pay even more to get it evaluated. Not to mention more shipping costs. What is PayPal good for then? Why do I pay them fees and why don't I just pay directly with my credit card? Since the only help I'll get is from my credit card company and not them. Useless waste of fees, I'm not using PayPal again if this is how they handle cases. Now I know why the seller ignored not only my messages but even the dispute when I escalated to PayPal. This was probably not the first time this seller has scammed someone.

[kernowlass]

@D_Alex

If you buy something from a shop and want a refund, you don't get a refund till you have returned the goods do you??

Same with paypal.

However buyer protection is never a 100% coverall, you have to READ up on it and then risk assess your transactions.

As for not using Paypal anymore that has nothing to do with me and bothers me not at all.

And i already told you to try your card issuer in my last sentence in my post above.

[D_Alex]

Your post makes no sense at all. If I had bought from a store of course I would have to return the items first, but I would just go there and return it. But when it comes to an online seller who ignores me after he scams me I don't think even you'd return him the items either, especially if that meant paying even more money on shipping and handling only to see the package return to me because the seller wouldn't accept it, and then get no refund anyways.

PayPal DOES cover this. Otherwise they would have decided the case on the seller's side. They decided on my side. The problem here is how they cover it, and how they decide the cases, which puts scammers at an advantage, because they make buyers have to return the fakes back to the scammers for their refunds, and that is IF the package is accepted by the scammer. Because if the package reads undeliverable or goes back to the sender, they won't issue the refund. See the problem here?

I can start an online shop selling the latest iPhones and then ship bricks at anyone who buys them. Then just sit quietly because the buyers are already **bleep**. Even if they win the case, they'll have to ship the bricks back to me and I can just not accept the package and it will be returned to them, or put up a fake address like the scammer in OP did and the couriers won't even be able to deliver me the bricks in the first place, and then get my money once the deadline is over. 

Telling me to go to my credit card company just further helps my point of view. If PayPal is so useless that I can't trust it for protection in buying on online shops, then why bother using it? Can you name me any reasons to use it?

[kernowlass]

@D_Alex

Probably best you don't if you haven't read up on buyer protection first and then risk assessed your own transactions.

[D_Alex]

But I have read. You're the one who needs to read it. PayPal specifically covers cases where I got items that were counterfeit, damaged or not what I ordered. You saying PayPal doesn't cover everything makes me question your title of Volunteer Advisor, since you aren't being any help at all. 

Also, I can't return the item to the seller because 1. It won't help at all since the seller's not gonna take it and 2. Counterfeit items should NOT be sent back to the defrauders by law. PayPal has gotten bad PR in the past for this and ended up refunding the money to the victim. 

Here's an arcticle for you:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2010/mar/19/paypal-return-fake-goods

[kernowlass]

@D_Alex

I didn't say they did not cover FAKE goods.

I said the onus is on YOU to prove the goods are fake and IF you do that then you don't have to return the item.

Again I have already said this so try reading.

And that kinda contradicts your second point as well as if you PROVE the item is fake then paypal would not contribute to allowing a fake item to go back and possibly be resold.

Again try READING and I suggest Paypals user agreement (as below) (that you agreed to) would be better than the Guardian  

If PayPal has reason to believe that returning an item that the buyer claims is SNAD to the Payment Recipient would result in a violation of applicable law, such as laws related to handling counterfeit items, PayPal may report the item to a competent authority. This may result in the authority taking control of and/or possession of the item from the buyer and the Payment Recipient might not receive the item back.

[D_Alex]

You said and I quote "However buyer protection is never a 100% coverall, you have to READ up on it and then risk assess your transactions."

Now if you weren't referring to SNAD why would you even mention it since it's not relevant to the situation in question? In my case it's 100% covered, I have read everything so stop telling me to read up on it because there's nothing else to read on. Or is that the only argument you have left?

I did prove the items were fake, otherwise PayPal would ask me further documentation before deciding the case. I showed them pictures of the phone and the message it kept popping up warning me the software on it wasn't genuine. If they needed more evidence they would have asked for it.

I could even get a written letter from the local PD saying I was surrendering the phone to them, but it won't let me add any more files now because PayPal thought the evidence I gave was sufficient and decided the case in my favour (or not, by the looks of it...)

[kernowlass]

@D_Alex

Buyer protection is NOT a 100% coverall for non receipt of item OR SNAD, that is a fact.

Paypal gives you 'some' coverage but the rest is up to you, not sure why you can't grasp that simple fact.

You are NEVER 100% covered, in your case you were covered IF and WHEN you returned the item to the seller.

You were covered IF and WHEN you provided proof the item was fake.

You were covered IF and WHEN paypal find in your favour.

That is NOT 100% coverage, its 'some' buyer protection as long as you risk assessed your own transaction.

If you did not provide paypal with a written company headed letter proving the item was fake then they would resolve it as an 'item recieved but not as described dispute' and you would have to return the item to the seller. If you HAD provided that proof they would not have told you to return the item.

To late to add things now, they decided your item was 'misdescribed' NOT that is was 'fake' and that is why you have to return it.