HORRIBLE IDEA TO HOLD FUNDS FOR 21 DAYS!!!

[gearhed78]

  Holding funds from sellers until the buyer leaves feedback is the worst idea EVER! Since when does Paypal become an authority on buyer satisfaction?? A smooth transaction is all that I wanted from Paypal. If they are going to hold funds, then they should make it very clear BEFORE you use them!  Keeping my money in their account for 21 days is a HUGE disadvantage of using Paypal. Stick to transferring funds,not trying to be a satisfaction authority!

[7yearseller]

Please, readuseragreement, share with us, if it is so easy to just stop using Paypal on eBay, who do we use that will not hold our funds, who is not under the eBay umbrella?

At this point, would be thrilled to know just who we can change to as eBay sellers who will not have their funds held. You say it is easy. So, who do we use? This is really all anyone wanted to know to begin with since we are not getting answers from Paypal. Now, you may not think we deserve to know why this is happening, but I and others disagree. But, then maybe Raven knows since she is so sure this is 'doggone temporary', that Paypal has some things to look into'. I did address this with her earlier to find out how she knows this, so I will look to see if she responded.

Okay, we are waiting for one of those names ebay listed that we can use who will not hold our funds, who will allow us to just sign up like we did with Paypal to start with, who will allow us to have more than one user id for our varied sales. Let's hear that name. I trust you know who it is since sincerely I do want this to be over and sign up using someone else and have it be very simple.

Also, sorry I brought the O into it. Just ranting out of my head at the moment since he is a good one to pick on "in this decade"

[PayPal_Olivia]

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i am surprised this thread has not been locked  due to off topic personal disputes.

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Everyone,

I'm not going to lock this topic because it is a large one containing a lot of threaded discussions, and everyone's on-topic perspective deserves to be heard. I will do everything in my power to prevent the need to lock the topic.

Please understand that these forums are here for people to help one another. Continuing to antagonize one another does nothing to progress the discussion, and may result in suspension or removal of the offending parties from the ability to participate in these forums. That would not be to silence anyone's opinion - I invite any opinion to be expressed if it's done without violating the Community Guidelines. Remember that it is every participant's responsibility to read and comply with these rules.

I'd also like to reiterate that PayPal employees are ALL denoted by a blue background and are listed as either an Employee, Moderator, or Administrator. Any other posters are not employed by PayPal, nor are they hired to participate in any way (as has been supposed by one or more posters in this topic).

I invite everyone to continue this discussion in a productive manner. Thank you for your time.

Olivia

[terese2]

Olivia, I ask this question with all due respect. Are you saying that none of the individuals who has been identified as a "shill" works for Ebay or Paypal, or any organization that might have been contracted by Ebay or Paypal?  And again, with all due respect, are you in a position where you would necessarily know?

I completely agree  that there are high emotions on this thread,  as is understandable, because  people fell that their livelihoods are being threatened.  But from my perspective, goading occurs on both sides of the issue, so I would hope that any censorship that occurs is dealt with an unbiassed hand.  Better, of course, not to require any!

[PayPal_Adrian]

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@terese2 wrote:

Olivia, I ask this question with all due respect. Are you saying that none of the individuals who has been identified as a "shill" works for Ebay or Paypal, or any organization that might have been contracted by Ebay or Paypal?  And again, with all due respect, are you in a position where you would necessarily know?

I completely agree  that there are high emotions on this thread,  as is understandable, because  people fell that their livelihoods are being threatened.  But from my perspective, goading occurs on both sides of the issue, so I would hope that any censorship that occurs is dealt with an unbiassed hand.  Better, of course, not to require any!

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terese2 - a valid question we would certainly like to address!  PayPal  has strict policies regarding employee usage of the forums, and all employees who use the forums must have their member ID marked as such by an Administrator before posting - it's the little PayPal symbol you see next to my name.  We regularly review registrations and posts to enforce this policy.  Believe it or not, an employee is fairly easy to spot from an administrative (and fellow employee) perspective. 

And honestly, we wouldn't want to create a forum of shills.  The forums aren't here for us to force everyone to rally around PayPal and talk about how great and wonderful it is.  I'll admit, I'm biased towards PayPal - and have never claimed to be neutral - and it shows in my posts.  If that bias convinces some of our members that PayPal really is a great service (which it is), well, that's wonderful, but if not, we fully respect your opinion and you are entitled to it.  That's your right, and we don't want to take your voice away. 

I think the best case in point is this particular thread in and of itself.  It's an issue customers feel passionate about, and I think we can all agree that some of the posts in here definitely push the line in terms of what is acceptable and what isn't.  If our goal were to "convert" all of our posters into PayPal loving, drooling members, well, leaving this thread up certainly wouldn't be the way to go about it, now would it? 

Instead, I would personally and as an Admin rather leave the thread up.  I want to hear your voice, I want to see your feedback, and I want you to have that opportunity to express yourself (as long as it is within the forum guidelines, of course).  That's what a community really, truly is, after all. 

This is your place, and your time.  Make the most of it. 

Sincerely,

Adrian

[Sparklements]

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@terese2 wrote:

Wow, Sparklements, that is eye-opening!

I wouldn't have believed that Paypal would use anonymous shills to quash complaints!  And I would never want to make a rash judgment without giving the accused a fair opportunity to speak up.

So how about it, Raven?  Is it true that you work for Live World?

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Considering its a fine by the FTC of $11,000 per message posted, I highly doubt any of the shills are going to admit to being shills.

[terese2]

My God!  Shows what a naif I am!

But I just thought I'd ask.  I think we must be getting under someone's skin, though, as I was invited to stop posting, and someone else is begging for the thread to be locked!  Heh Heh!

I find it so strange, in a society characterized by both democracy and free enterprise, that certain parties want to squelch the voice of honest consumers providing direct feedback in a forum explicitly designed for that purpose.  The voice of the consumer is a powerful tool, and I think it is extremely important for all of us to abhor Paypal's sleazy practices with respect to this 21-day hold.  In fact, Paypal should be thanking us for giving them such articulate and precise feedback, wouldn't you say?

At the moment, I am looking at Propay, which has pro's and con's.  It charges fees, holds money for a specified amount of time, and is only available to a subset of ebay sellers,though I belong to that subset.  It is interesting to me to note my own reaction--I actually do not mind paying fees for honest service.  It is the unethical and rapacious quality of Paypal I detest.  Maybe that is good feedback for them?

[Sparklements]

When I first learned about this stuff I received several emails from other anti-PP activists warning me that these people are dangerous -- "be careful" is what they kept saying, they pointed to one person who had to change their address to a PO box to protect themselves. So I went and filed a report with my local police, just in case something "fishy" should happen to me.  

As for alternatives, I'm going to wait until clearXchange rolls out (thats the service Bank of America, Chase and Wells Fargo are going to be offering soon -- maybe not the best companies but at least with them you know what federal authority to report them to when they **bleep** you!).

[terese2]

In my case, those kind of threats would backfire in a hurry!   That's where living in DC, with lots and lots of friends in government and journalism, come sin very handy!

Truth be told, I think there is enough serious energy from real consumers on this site to be sending a very loud message to Paypal:  if the inequitable and  unethical practice of randomly putting 21 day holds on people's hard-earned money does not stop, it will be Paypal who pays the price. It is important to keep hearing the stories of Paypal's inequitable and unethical application of their rapacious policy so that consumers can be educated.

Was it Sym's who said, "An educated consumer is our best customer?"  Might have been true for them, but it certainly isn't for Paypal!!

[7yearseller]

The only thing about these other places is that eBay does not approve them as a payment source. If we are leaving eBay, then there are a multitude of payment processors. I asked my web host to recommend someone and they recommended they say they have been very happy with for six years (this web host is known by many of you), but again eBay does not allow their use. If this isn't the opposite of a democracy, I don't know what it is. We are controlled.

I didn't even mind all of the changed eBay made, when the prices went up, all of that and that is because it is less than a brick and mortar store, gets more traffic than a website, overpowers those like ETSY, ebid, etc etc (for now), and this is where I WAS making my money, money I depended on.

Let me ask this if all will answer honestly. Have any of you here had anything related to the things eBay lists as reason for holding funds as a part of your eBay experience recently? I ask because I have talked to other sellers I know and this is not happening to them. The part of the eBay list that fits me is my sales are down. They talk about sales spikes questionably as one reason, but it appears from the outset they relate this all to those with held funds being a risk. Please do look at the reasons they give for holding funds and see if anything applies to you.

And, to repeat myself, I did not sign up for this 8 years ago. I did not sign up for the things they now find to be a reason to hold. If their reasons are true, then any NEW seller will have their funds held because one of the things they also use for a reason is if we change categories and they don't know what our experience is in that category. If new, there is no experience in any category, yet I see new sellers on here not asking about the hold but asking other things as if they have no hold on their funds. Can anyone (please not Raven) shed some light on this? Sorry, Raven, but your one sided point of view has been said enough. We know there are two sides that should be equitable, but this is not.

[terese2]

If  you look at the Ebay website, they do list some acceptable sites other than Paypal.  Ebay may well have an ownership interest in them--I don't know.  My issue, oddly, is not who owns it, but how customers are treated, and that is where Paypal fails so resoundingly.  I am looking at the various sites now, but have reached no conclusion.  I use PAypal for reasons other than Ebay, where the 21 day hold does not apply.  Even so, I have removed all money from Paypal, and will not continue touse them unless the 21 day hold policy for Ebay sales changes.

To answer your question, "No."  The 21 day hold announcement came to me out of the blue.  In fact, I thought it was some sort of scam, sent it off to Paypal with a question, and never received a reply.  Then, the announcement showed up on my Paypal account summary page.  Again, I fired off a question about it--twice--and have never received an answer of any kind!  This after about 8 years, something like 660 sales, and 100% feedback.  On top of it all, Paypal has access to a bank account and credit card of mine--so exactly what would that risk be?  It is a bunch of malarkey.

If you take the time to read through this thread, you will see that Paypal says different things to different people.  Newbies get told the policy won't affect them once they have a history of good sales; those of us with excellent sales histories get told there is some mysterious "risk assessment" formula that has tripped us up.  This policy is complete garbage--unethical--and inequitably applied.

It is very important for us to keep hammering Paypal on these boards and publicly.  For one thing, we want to alert newcomers that they are stepping into a financial quagmire if they trust Paypal to process their Ebay sales.  For another, Paypal is currently being sued for this behavior--I learned this by reading through this thread.  Our experiences are the reason.