Non-delivery of international shipments

[azrtl]

Recently I mailed an eBay auction item to a buyer in Spain.  The package was mailed via First Class International and I have proff (via the tracking of the customs form number) that my local US Postal Office accepted that package on Sept 23rd at 10:53am.  In fact, I even have the receipt from that transaction.  Also I want to note that on ALL of my eBay auctions it say that 'I will not refund for packages that do not arrive, so please get insurance if you feel it necessary.'.

 In this case the buyer opted to NOT purchase the additional insurance.  A couple of weeks ago I get notification from PayPal that the buyer is disputing the payment due to non-delivery!   First off, I don't beleive that any of the international postal services perform any tracking of delivery.  So although when I go to the US Postal Service web site it shows that the package was acccepted, it doesn't say anything about it being delivered.  So how do I know whether or not it actually was delivered.

 So in any case, I jump onto PayPal and provide all the relevant information including the customs form tracking number, a scanned copy of the receipt and a whole long explanation that the buyer waived his right to a refund because he didn't purchase the additional insurance. 

 After 2 weeks of waiting for PayPal to make a decision, they finally found i the buyers favor.  What the HECK! 

 I did nothing wrong in this case, covered all of my bases, clearly spelled out that I'm not responsible for non-delivery by the postal services, provided proof that I mailed the package and proof that I paid for it.  Now all of a sudden PayPal is taking that entire payment amount out of MY account!  I'm out the item and I'm out the cost of the international shipping.

 Where does PayPal get off siding with the buyer when clearly the buyer waived his right to a refund by NOT purchasing the additional insurance?

 To make matter worse, PayPal sent me an e-mail saying that I could appeal the decision.  So I got back on PayPal, spent another 20 minutes litigating my side of this situation only to find that when I pressed the 'ACCEPT' key, that it wouldn't even let me enter the appeal!    **bleep**!    What am I supposed to do?

 Clearly I either need to stop shipping internationally or just stop using PayPal.  Their policies are ridiculous!

 Anyone else have a similar story or possibly can provide me some information on how I can go about protecting myself from this type of a scam in the future?

[funkyman]

                                                 Listen never send anything to SPAIN or ITALY without Express mail and tracking ,why?Because they are alot of crooks and scam artists there ,its in their culture.Its their job to pull off scams like that.Also since 1989 there has been a mojor influx of thousands maybe millions of Eastern Europeans to Western Europe who also specialise in internet crime,organized crime and fraud,those former communists country citizens were and  are poverty stricken,but very smart as well,they will take you for a buck ride, becarefull unless the feedback is in the region of at least a  100 or else  forget it,never take a risk.

[funkyman]

That includes Germany ,France,England  where there are alot of Bulgarians Romanians,Russians etc and they have destroyed and are destroying the foundations of the Western European countries with crime and fraud.Mark my words and spread the word.Even here in the USA Bulgarians used ATM cards clone them and used them to take millions of dolars from accounts,ofcourse they were eventually caught.

[IncredibleMags]

Trust me, I feel your pain. First Class International is the worst shipping service ever created and I don't know why they even offer it.

I ship probably 50 packages a month via First Class International and about 10 of those will end up with the buyer claiming non-delivery. There's really no alternative for shipping light weight, low value items internationally without cutting off that market completely. Most buyers (as in 95%) won't upgrade to a "track-able" service such as Priority or Express since it's expensive, and I can't say that I blame them. However, they also simply don't bother to read about how unreliable, risky and slow the service is, even though it's described in all my listings.

It's simply a mysterious service. I've asked tons of postal workers about different aspects of first class international and all of them had different answers. Most simply didn't know.

And that reminds me, I say the same thing in my listings as well, about not being responsible for a lost package, etc. Unfortunately that kind of disclaimer means absolutely nothing when it comes to resolving a dispute. So you and I are guaranteed to lose any type of claim from a first class international transaction.

If we were to go as far as having the buyer sign some type of physical legal agreement that waives us of responsibility, then perhaps we might get some type of consideration during a dispute. Guessing useless as well though.

Many ebayers will simply tell us to stop crying and to not offer first class international. True, but I was still making a profit vs refunded transactions, so decided not to cut off that market. HOWEVER, I am sick of dealing with it as of now and will be removing it from my listings. Not having to worry about refunds, upset customers, bad feedback, etc will be totally worth it after 2 years of using that service.

Fact is, you will have to bite the bullet and get ready to issues refunds if you want to offer first class international. My advice is to decide if it is worth the hassle + money earned (which may or may not be significant after refunds are taken into account) to warrant using it.

[azrtl]

I agree with you!  I have considered stooping my first class international shipping option.  Not only is it very risky, but it's also somewhat of a pain because PayPal doesn't allow me to print postage for first class international.  So I have to go to all of the extra effort to hand print an address on paper, taping it to the package, then going to the USPS web site, filling out the 2976 Customs Form, printing that and then finally having to drive all the way to the Post Office in order to mail it and pay for the shipping.

 Having said that, I also incorporate a $1.50 'handling fee' into all of my eBay auctions that ship internationally.   At the very least it pays for the gas for all the trips to the post office.

 I also was able to contact a representative from PayPal who just happens to do some selling on eBay and he sort of told me the same thing.  It's a big risk, in particular to countries that don't do any shipment tracking.  He named Spain and about 5 other countries that are notorious for this issue.

 So I guess we're all stuck between a rock and a hard place.  If I remove the international shipping option, then I get all sorts of e-mails from international customers wanting me to 'do them a favor' and ship to them anyway.

 In this day and age of technology, I really don't understand why all of these other postal services can't get on board and do decent tracking and delivery confirmations.  Just what in the heck are we paying for????

[LI_Pearl]

While I recently dropped Canadian shipments for just this reason, I just issued another refund for non-receipt.  I thought that as long as a Seller ships to a confirmed address and has proof of shipment, we are covered.  Where is the so-called "PayPal Seller Protection?"

Also the issue of not being able to print postage from your PC for First Class International is ridiculous.  You can print International Priority so why can't you do first class as well???  I am not going to stand in line at the post office at this time of year to mail a $7 item to Canada........and may even have to give the Buyer their money back if they "SAY" they never got it!

Although I'm a small seller, this problem has cut my business at least by half.  eBay and PayPal are doing their own businesses a disservice and are losing out on a great deal of revenue when we discontinue international shipping.

It's not true that the Seller is protected and they should make that clear from the beginning.

[qc_hunter]

I just had one filed on me also. I changed to Priority International on all my listings a few months back because of a previous one. I copied a old listing for a item to save time and it still had First Class in the listing. And guess what happened!!! I will never use it again. LI_Pearl said where is our PayPal Seller Protection. It does state that you have to ship items with a tracking number to qualify. First Class International does not. So they know that First Class International is unreliable. Don't use it!

[LI_Pearl]

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@qc_hunter wrote:
I just had one filed on me also. I changed to Priority International on all my listings a few months back because of a previous one. I copied a old listing for a item to save time and it still had First Class in the listing. And guess what happened!!! I will never use it again. LI_Pearl said where is our PayPal Seller Protection. It does state that you have to ship items with a tracking number to qualify. First Class International does not. So they know that First Class International is unreliable. Don't use it!

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That's really not true.  When I ship to Canada (or UK, etc.), I use the post office form 2976 United States Postal Service Customs Declaration.

This form has a tracking number; however, it's only tracked in the US.  You can go to the post office website & enter that number for results.  In the case of my last "non-receipt dispute," I have the following tracking:

Label/Receipt Number: LC22 5366 612U S
Class: First-Class Mail International
Service(s): International Letter
Status: Acceptance

Your item was accepted at 2:58 PM on November 12, 2009 in BALDWIN, NY 11510. No further information is available for this item.

At the time of shipment, I send that tracking number to the Buyer.  It confirms that I did, in fact, mail the item.  It's not my fault that the other country does not track it.  I believe that our Seller Protection should allow for this & as long as you can provide proof of shipment, we should be covered. 

I won't send another item internationally until this changes.  If I have an item of value, I may offer International Priority, but I'll never use First Class International again.  In my case, I ship low value items and a Buyer is not going to pay more to ship it than it costs.

What does PayPal expect us to do?  They encourage the Seller to ship internationally, but offer NO protection.

[branboyce]

That's right, they have got to know the international shipping delivery confirmation issues. They are the ones who set up the circumstances upon which some buyers can take advantage of sellers. Perhaps they are the ones on the receiving end of all those lost packages,  (LOL). Let's not forget that there are seller scams out there too.  I know I don't like the feeling they think I'm one of those, just because I sell things on ebay.  I'd feel better if they were doing something to resolve this issue, because there are a lot of good sellers and buyers out there that deserve better service.

[FourZoasBoos]

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11-12-2009 01:18 PM  funkyman:

That includes Germany ,France,England  where there are alot of Bulgarians Romanians,Russians etc and they have destroyed and are destroying the foundations of the Western European countries with crime and fraud.Mark my words and spread the word.Even here in the USA Bulgarians used ATM cards clone them and used them to take millions of dolars from accounts,ofcourse they were eventually caught.

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I agree international shipping is a risk, but it seems unfair to single out Eastern Europeans as the perpetraters.  I'm half  Czech (btw thanks for not including Czechs in your list), lived half my life in Prague, and it has been my experience that eastern european immigrants get blamed for much more than is fair.  Maybe Gypsies from these areas cause probems due to their differing moral ideas (to put it politely).  The nationalities you mentioned as being problematic are not as impoverished and desperate as many Americans think, they are all EU countries, excluding Russia (of which you can say anything you want :)... especially Bulgarians... it's not a poor country, and I've known many people of these nationalities that have to take the flack of what a few bad seeds do.  So, I hope your opinion changes regarding the Easterners, though I understand your general frustration... I've had more problems with dishonest buyers here in the States.

[FourZoasBoos]

That includes Germany ,France,England  where there are alot of Bulgarians Romanians,Russians etc and they have destroyed and are destroying the foundations of the Western European countries with crime and fraud.Mark my words and spread the word.Even here in the USA Bulgarians used ATM cards clone them and used them to take millions of dolars from accounts,ofcourse they were eventually caught.