A WARNING ABOUT PAYPAL BUYER PROTECTION

[gregc4]

I'm sure that there are a few people like me who believed that Paypal actually protects you when making purchases, especially from overseas sellers who can be flat out ripoffs.
I recently negotiated the sale of a gt1 clone with a hard drive for a t42 laptop. The hard drive was supposed to be loaded with DIS, SSS, and DAS and you select the boot by F1,F2,F3. The problem is when I received the package there was no hdd. I contacted the seller who says they don't "know the products they are selling" and that should not have been promised. After starting a dispute with Paypal they stopped emailing me. I never received the hdd and the $650.00 I spent for the crappy clone was far too much. I escalated the dispute to a claim with Paypal. It was immediately declined and an email sent to me and the seller as such. I contacted Paypal on the phone as I was very angry and was told that if the item was not purchased through Paypal you are only covered if they send nothing at all. They cover "Item not received", not "item significantly different than described". An example they give is, "Such as an empty box". So if the guy in China takes a crap in a box and sends it to you, you are not covered as you received your item, it's just not what you ordered. You received an item, not the item. I'm out $650.00 for a crappy clone unless this seller miraculously sends it to me. If I ordered it with my credit card I would have much better protection. What is the point of using Paypal?

Here's the definition from their User Agreement of Significantly not as described.

13.8 SNAD Definition. An item is Significantly Not as Described if it is materially different than what the Seller described in the item listing. Here are some examples:

• You received a completely different item. Example: You purchased a book and received a DVD or an empty box.
• The condition of the item was misrepresented. Example: The listing said "new" and the item was used.
• The item was advertised as authentic but is not authentic.
• The item is missing major parts or features which were not disclosed in the listing.
• You purchased three items from a Seller but only received two.
• The item was damaged during shipment.

An item is not Significantly Not as Described if it is materially similar to the Seller’s item listing description. Here are some examples:

• The defect in the item was correctly described by the Seller.
• The item was properly described but you didn't want it after you received it.
• The item was properly described but did not meet your expectations.
• The item has minor scratches and was listed as used condition.

Here's the definition of Item Not Received

“Item Not Received” means a challenge to a payment from a User claiming that the item purchased was not received.


And as long as they can provide a tracking number, you received "your item" even if it was not the Item you purchased, but something completely different. That is now, "the item you purchased" and you received it. So it is now significantly not as described.

[prodigy1]

Another very sad story! Unfortunately many of us (me included) have learned the hard way that purchases made that are NOT on eBay have fairly limited protection. As you noted, really only an item not received has any real guarantee of money back. Paypal for non-eBay purchases, only real benefit is that the seller does not receive your finance and personal info. They never see your credit card or bank account or debit card number, etc. Which actually is a nice benefit. But in terms of any "customer service" type of benefits ... returns, refunds, item not as described, buyer remorse, etc. it does not offer much. This is their policy and the cost and risk doing business with Paypal.

In the meantime, like everyone now advises, I would recommend you use Paypal and use a major credit card as your funding source. That way you basically have 2 levels of protection. Paypal and your credit card.

On that note, did you use your credit card as your funding source for this transaction via Paypal? If so, contact them direct, they often can help. If you used your checking account as your funding source, contact your bank, they also can help. (I recently had a problem with a purchase and in my case accidently used my checking account for the funding source. It was only $40 and Paypal could not offer much but I called my bank - Chase - and explained the situation and they very promptly refunded me).  If you used your Paypal balance, well that falls under everything Paypal and you may be SOL.

Now the good news is, rumor has it and I actually believe it is now true, the policy is going to change some and Paypal in November will start covering non-eBay purchases at the same level as eBay purchases. Specifically you will now be protected for SNAD for non-eBay purchases. So sorry to say but if you had this issue a month from now, you're probably covered.

[gregc4]

It's too bad that I had to learn the hard way. Who ever reads user agreements. I buy so much on Ebay and Paypal has helped me a couple times when needed. I assumed the same coverage applied when people used Paypal outside of Ebay. I figured this was part of the agreement you enter when accepting Paypal payments outside Ebay as well. I figured that we all agreed to arbitration performed by paypal in the event of a discrepency. Why else would I want to use their service. I've recently been the victim of atm swiping where they got my atm info and pin number. It took 5 days for them to take nearly $2,000.00 out of my checking account. It took 7 days to get the full amount back. If they want my credit card info to use, that's fine...I'm covered for fraud. At least with a credit card you can dispute charges when you get an empty box. I did get a hold of somebody at Paypal that actually cares though. They said the are looking into it. We'll see. He seemed sincere.