Need Help ASAP! Got scammed from a seller, won the claim on PayPal, but I'm still **bleep**.

[Robotron]

Okay so I found an add for a Cobra front bumper cover for my mustang on Craigslist. A rare bumper that is no longer produced and is extremely hard to come by since Ford stopped producing them a long time ago. The add specifically stated that the bumper's mounting bracketry was in excellent condition. The add came complete with pictures that showed all the mounting bracketry in excellent condition. I contacted the seller via text message in order to have a written record of what was discussed. I still have all the text messages. We agreed to a price and I sent him the money. The transaction was for $715.82. I was sure to print 3 copies of the Craigslist add he posted with the QR code, all his pictures of the bumper he was advertizing, and his description of what was being sold. It also contained his phone number which was the number I used to contact him. I basically have multiple copies of his entire add with proof of everything he stated about the bumper's condition.

So, he told me that shipping would hit me for $94.76. It would be shipped via UPS Ground which I thought was funny because usually an item as big as a bumper cover needs to be shipped via freight. Well, he sends me the item and sure enough he got a gigantic freight-sized package shipped to me via Ground. I still have no idea how he pulled that off. I opened the package and inspected the bumper. It had a broken stud on the driver's side. I immediately took a picture of it and texted him it along with a message saying that it looks like the stud was broken. He said "Ugh, nice...what would you like to do?" I said I don't know yet. I said I would try to see if I could get a full nut to bite on the stud. He said no problem and to keep him posted.

Well we've been getting hit by thunderstorms on a daily basis for the last three months here. It's always raining and you never really have a chance to do anything outside. Plus my car is my daily driver. Two weeks passed and I told him I hadn't had a chance to try it out because of the rain but I would try to that upcoming weekend. I was unable to do it that weekend so a couple more weeks pass by and then finally during the 4th of July week. We got some breaks from the storms. I was finally able to test it out and sure enough the stud wasn't long enough so I texted him and told him it wouldn't work and that I wanted a refund.

I immediately go to the UPS website after I texted him and tried to get the shipping price to ship it back to him by entering the dimensions and weight of the package on their website. I figured I'd be able to send it back for $94.76 but my suspicions were right. The package was indeed too large to ship via ground according to the website. I immediately called UPS and asked them why the website won't let me ship it. They told me that the package was too big to ship via ground and that it would have to be shipped via freight which would cost $286. I asked the UPS person on the phone why it was shipped to my house via Ground when it apparently was too big to ship via Ground. He said the sender must have lied about the dimensions of the package. 

I then texted the seller and ask him how he got the package sent via ground because UPS is telling me to ship it via freight. He then replied and said he'd send me a replacement bracket with good studs. The problem is that the bracket is rivetted on the bumper and if I attempt to drill the rivets out on the current bracket and replace it I will probably break the very flimsy tabs that are affixed to the bumper. These tabs are what the rivets go through. If you don't know what you're doing you could seriously mess the bumper up.

Well, anyways I tell him no I want a refund. His reply was to ship it back. I told him I would when he paypalled me all my money plus what it would cost to ship it back to him. He refused, so I opened up a dispute with PayPal saying the item was not as described. The seller then escallates it to a claim and responds to PayPal saying that he sent me the bumper and said that I claimed that there was a problem with the bumper upon receiving it. He claimed that he told me to ship it back that day for a full refund if I was not happy or keep it.

I then sent my response to PayPal giving my side of the story and provided them with screenshots off all the texts between myself and the seller. The texts showed that I sent him a pic of the broken stud the day I got the bumper and that he asked me what I would like to do. When I said give me a chance to check it out and see if it can work he said ok no problem. I also sent them pictures of the bumper I took that day I received it and sent that to PayPal as well. Not even 24 hours later they ruled in my favor and that I am entitled to a full refund.

However, the twisted part is that I have to ship the bumper back to him which will cost me $286+. So in the end I have to pay almost half of what I paid for the bumper just to ship it back to him. It's not even worth doing that. I contacted PayPal and demanded that they should put the ownace on the seller for covering the shipping cost. The person on the phone agreed with me and said they'd ask the sender to send a return shipping label. They said they could refund me up to $30. What good is that gonna do? The representative on the phone asked me if I used a credit card to pay. I told her yes. She told me that I could always use the buyer protection on my card to get a full refund without having to ship anything back. I told her thank you for the information and our phone call concluded.

So I contacted the bank for my credit card and filed a dispute. The guy said the form should arrive at my house in 3-5 days. I have some questions though. Is my credit card's bank gonna dispute PayPal or the guy I bought it from? Would my current claim with PayPal hinder me from getting a chargeback to my credit card since they told me to send the item back at my own expense and I refused? I think it's ridiculous that the shipping cost, especially one that high, should have to come out of my pocket when I got **bleep** out of my money. 

Can anyone advise me on how to proceed? What would be my best course of action? Do you guys think I have enough evidence to get a chargeback on the card? All I want is my full refund. He can have the bumper back if he wants but I'm not paying to ship it to him. I'll take a huge loss on the deal if I do that. Why should I have to lose $300 because I delt with a lying scammer? It should be the other way around. I just don't understand PayPal's logic, I really don't.

[Robotron]

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@DPCreations wrote:

I've seen so many issues with people who purchased items on Craig's List that I would anyone's judgement with such purchases.  I would also question someone's judgment about purchasing items with high shipping costs and ignoring the PayPal requirement to pay high return costs.   So, I question the "smartness" comment about not damaging the product.  Not questioning your "no damage" and being careful comments; I do believe they would be correct.  Being smart about being careful is misses the big issue about not understanding PayPal policies for returns.

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Likewise, I would question the smartness of someone who leaves complete words out of sentences and leaves the reader wondering just what was being said. Thankfully, even though you did that I can still put your passive aggressive statements together and see that you're implying that I'm stupid because I bought a bumper off of CL. When he gave me his PayPal email I ran it through various search engines and saw that he has sold a lot of mustang parts on different forums throughout the years. I went through every thread that he made to sell a part and read all of the comments in them to see if anyone claimed he was a scammer or not a good buisness man. I didn't see any of that so I decided to go further. I also looked up his phone number to see if that was involved in any funny buisness. I also did that to see if it was registered to the name he gave me and it was. I didn't just blindly buy something from someone I didn't do homework on. I already said that I told PayPal up front before I opened the dispute that I wasn't covering the shipping cost and they assured me I wouldn't have to, which is why I opened the dispute through them.  I was also under the assumption that since he told me the shipping cost was $94.76 that I wouldn't have to pay three times that amount to return it to him. I didn't know the seller lied about the dimensions of the package to get it shipped at a lower rate. Now I know why it took him a couple days to get a UPS man to take the package from his house. The first guy probably saw the size of it and told him no. The other guy probably said **bleep** it and took it anyways. I won't be buying anything big from anyone through PayPal alone ever again though. Even if I do get my chargeback I'm not going to take a risk like that again. I don't care how squeaky clean they appear to be.

[DPCreations]

@Robotron

Just to be clear, I never implied stupidty; that was your own assessement.  My comment was about making poor judgement decisions; that is not related to intelligence.

[Robotron]

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@DPCreations wrote:

@Robotron

Just to be clear, I never implied stupidty; that was your own assessement.  My comment was about making poor judgement decisions; that is not related to intelligence.

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You can continue to be passive aggressive and backtrack with your statements. You questioned my "smartness" and accussed me of having poor judgement without even knowing what kind of research I did on the seller before deciding to deal with him. Then you imply that because I have poor judgement in your eyes that my word is meangingless. When you see someone go on numerous forums and sell car parts over a number of years and see no complaints the general consensus is that they're legit. That doesn't guarantee that you won't get ripped off dealing with them, but the odds of someone with a good reputation doing that are slim. Had he sent me a perfect bumper you would not be criticizing my judgement. At the end of the day I can always resell the bumper for at least 500 bucks, maybe more, because it is a rare and sought after part. The stud is the only thing wrong with it. Someone who can do bodywork repairs could replace the bracket with one that has good studs. Every mustang bumper uses the same bracketry to mount it to the car. The bracket itself is inexpensive and easy to find. It's just hard to change. I'd just have to be up front about that problem when selling it. Even with that flaw the scarcity of the bumper makes it worth a lot.

[DPCreations]

The problem is that none of your claims matter as it is PayPal polcies which do and you have to return parts for a refund.  That's the way PayPal policy works for not as described.  It's a risk you were willing to take when you made the purchase.

[Robotron]

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@DPCreations wrote:

The problem is that none of your claims matter as it is PayPal polcies which do and you have to return parts for a refund.  That's the way PayPal policy works for not as described.  It's a risk you were willing to take when you made the purchase.

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I never had a problem with returning the part for a refund. He can have his bumper back, but not at my cost. Not under these circumstances. My problem is that I have to pay half of what I paid for it to ship it back and even though PayPal can see that I'm getting **bleep** they'll do nothing about it. Any time you buy something from whatever store or buisness and they send you faulty merchandise they pay to get it shipped back since the mistake was on their end. PayPal is the only service that puts the ownace on the buyer, which is stupid. This thread wasn't really meant to be an argument about PayPal's policy in the first place. I understand what their policy is. When I took my risk I was willing to pay what I paid to get it here, not triple that amount. I don't need you to come in here and barrage me with a bunch of statements defending PayPal. PayPal just wants you to use PayPal. They really don't care if the you get **bleep** or not. They only care about themselves. I just wanted to know what other options I had since PayPal won't help me. I also wanted to know if anyone's had any previous experience going through with the CC chargeback and what it entails. 

[DPCreations]

It was already explained that a chargeback could have unexpected results if you won.

I am not defending any policies as to why they exist, just stating what they are; PayPal is just following published policies.

[Robotron]

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@DPCreations wrote:

It was already explained that a chargeback could have unexpected results if you won.

I am not defending any policies as to why they exist, just stating what they are; PayPal is just following published policies.

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Yeah I know it was already explained. I was just explaining why this thread was made since you don't seem to understand why it was made. All you've done is go off on a tangent about me being stupid, having poor judgement, and babbling on about PayPal's policy. 

[DPCreations]

Yes, I know.  You don't like PayPal policies for buyer protection.

[Robotron]

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@sumiko wrote:

first ,I must congratulate you on giving such a good narrative of the event which took place over a  period of several months,most buyers came to this forum full of anger,agitation,emotional and upset,they can hardly tell what transpired.

Since you did such a good job,it gives me the opportunity to point out YOU ARE NOT PERFECT,you **bleep** around too long with the bumper,once you find out it is not as described,you should decide what to do next,not wait for weather or spare time.

As for him shipping UPS ground,it is none of your business how he fooled the system,in fact he is saving your money by charging a lower shipping fee,did he not?

back to the dispute,so Paypal customer service must be reading this forum and advising buyer to file chargeback as the ultimate win solution,if so,why bother to ask Paypal to intervene?

A chargeback hits Paypal,since Paypal is the one who accepts credit card payments for subaccounts like us,and these days Paypal has its hands full of disputes and chargebacks,do they need more?

Credit card issuer,a clerk will be reviewing your case,your documentation of what he said,what you said is not wasted,as a clerk does read,unlike Paypal robot which is nothing but a piece of software,it does not read or study photos.

No one can guarantee what this clerk will do after reading and watching photos,would he/she let you keep the bumper and your money,we dont know,as Paypal ,like you pointed out,has in the past appeal and won the chargeback. 

I have seen cases where the cc issuer decides to give some money to the cardholder for shipping or suggest each party pays half of the cost of shipping,a bumper is not a rubber stamp,it is too much to lose,so you just have t o wait and see,may be call the cc issuer and try to figure which way the wind blows,yours or his? or Paypal.

But Paypal buyer protection is not like Ebay,you pickup shipping ,while Ebay will waste no time and get you a return label,if seller has used Ebay to print UPS label,you may get the same label for the same cost or worse if he did not use Ebay to print label,Ebay WILL GIVE YOU A FIRST CLASS  2 OUNCE LABEL TO RETURN THE BUMPER!   

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The narative did not take place over several months. It took place over a few weeks. I did not hold the bumper and wait several months to complain about it. He asked me what I wanted to do. I asked if I could see if a full nut could bite on the stud. That's it. I suggested that only because the bumper is really hard to find. It took me 2 years of looking to buy one. It's a rare OEM part that is no longer produced.

Him shipping a damaged bumper via Ground claiming it to be in excellent condition is not saving me money. It's doing the exact opposite. I'm out 700 bucks and to recoup my money I have to pay half of that back to return it. Meanwhile he can take the bumper and resell it for that price to someone else and laugh to the bank. 

I asked PayPal to intervene because when I called them to file a dispute I specifically told them that I wasn't paying to ship it back numerous times. They assurred to me on the phone that I wouldn't have to. Then after they do the claim they tell me I have to ship it. Had I known they were gonna tell me one thing and do another I would have just went the CC route. Apparently, it's their policy to make the buyer ship it back but I was unaware of this because I told them upfront before I filed the dispute that I wasn't going to pay it. In the few disputes I've had in the past they got closed rather quickly because we'd come to an agreement and they always covered the return shipping. 

Thanks for the info on the CC chargeback process. If an actual human with common sense can look at all the photographs then I should be in good shape. I was always under the assumption that a human reviewed cases for PayPal when the transaction number is high. All I know was that the claim was going by slowly until I sent them my evidence via email. They never asked for any but I sent it anyways. It took them about 17 hours to rule in my favor after I emailed them the proof. Silly me, I thought a human looked at it.