Need Help ASAP! Got scammed from a seller, won the claim on PayPal, but I'm still **bleep**.

[Robotron]

Okay so I found an add for a Cobra front bumper cover for my mustang on Craigslist. A rare bumper that is no longer produced and is extremely hard to come by since Ford stopped producing them a long time ago. The add specifically stated that the bumper's mounting bracketry was in excellent condition. The add came complete with pictures that showed all the mounting bracketry in excellent condition. I contacted the seller via text message in order to have a written record of what was discussed. I still have all the text messages. We agreed to a price and I sent him the money. The transaction was for $715.82. I was sure to print 3 copies of the Craigslist add he posted with the QR code, all his pictures of the bumper he was advertizing, and his description of what was being sold. It also contained his phone number which was the number I used to contact him. I basically have multiple copies of his entire add with proof of everything he stated about the bumper's condition.

So, he told me that shipping would hit me for $94.76. It would be shipped via UPS Ground which I thought was funny because usually an item as big as a bumper cover needs to be shipped via freight. Well, he sends me the item and sure enough he got a gigantic freight-sized package shipped to me via Ground. I still have no idea how he pulled that off. I opened the package and inspected the bumper. It had a broken stud on the driver's side. I immediately took a picture of it and texted him it along with a message saying that it looks like the stud was broken. He said "Ugh, nice...what would you like to do?" I said I don't know yet. I said I would try to see if I could get a full nut to bite on the stud. He said no problem and to keep him posted.

Well we've been getting hit by thunderstorms on a daily basis for the last three months here. It's always raining and you never really have a chance to do anything outside. Plus my car is my daily driver. Two weeks passed and I told him I hadn't had a chance to try it out because of the rain but I would try to that upcoming weekend. I was unable to do it that weekend so a couple more weeks pass by and then finally during the 4th of July week. We got some breaks from the storms. I was finally able to test it out and sure enough the stud wasn't long enough so I texted him and told him it wouldn't work and that I wanted a refund.

I immediately go to the UPS website after I texted him and tried to get the shipping price to ship it back to him by entering the dimensions and weight of the package on their website. I figured I'd be able to send it back for $94.76 but my suspicions were right. The package was indeed too large to ship via ground according to the website. I immediately called UPS and asked them why the website won't let me ship it. They told me that the package was too big to ship via ground and that it would have to be shipped via freight which would cost $286. I asked the UPS person on the phone why it was shipped to my house via Ground when it apparently was too big to ship via Ground. He said the sender must have lied about the dimensions of the package. 

I then texted the seller and ask him how he got the package sent via ground because UPS is telling me to ship it via freight. He then replied and said he'd send me a replacement bracket with good studs. The problem is that the bracket is rivetted on the bumper and if I attempt to drill the rivets out on the current bracket and replace it I will probably break the very flimsy tabs that are affixed to the bumper. These tabs are what the rivets go through. If you don't know what you're doing you could seriously mess the bumper up.

Well, anyways I tell him no I want a refund. His reply was to ship it back. I told him I would when he paypalled me all my money plus what it would cost to ship it back to him. He refused, so I opened up a dispute with PayPal saying the item was not as described. The seller then escallates it to a claim and responds to PayPal saying that he sent me the bumper and said that I claimed that there was a problem with the bumper upon receiving it. He claimed that he told me to ship it back that day for a full refund if I was not happy or keep it.

I then sent my response to PayPal giving my side of the story and provided them with screenshots off all the texts between myself and the seller. The texts showed that I sent him a pic of the broken stud the day I got the bumper and that he asked me what I would like to do. When I said give me a chance to check it out and see if it can work he said ok no problem. I also sent them pictures of the bumper I took that day I received it and sent that to PayPal as well. Not even 24 hours later they ruled in my favor and that I am entitled to a full refund.

However, the twisted part is that I have to ship the bumper back to him which will cost me $286+. So in the end I have to pay almost half of what I paid for the bumper just to ship it back to him. It's not even worth doing that. I contacted PayPal and demanded that they should put the ownace on the seller for covering the shipping cost. The person on the phone agreed with me and said they'd ask the sender to send a return shipping label. They said they could refund me up to $30. What good is that gonna do? The representative on the phone asked me if I used a credit card to pay. I told her yes. She told me that I could always use the buyer protection on my card to get a full refund without having to ship anything back. I told her thank you for the information and our phone call concluded.

So I contacted the bank for my credit card and filed a dispute. The guy said the form should arrive at my house in 3-5 days. I have some questions though. Is my credit card's bank gonna dispute PayPal or the guy I bought it from? Would my current claim with PayPal hinder me from getting a chargeback to my credit card since they told me to send the item back at my own expense and I refused? I think it's ridiculous that the shipping cost, especially one that high, should have to come out of my pocket when I got **bleep** out of my money. 

Can anyone advise me on how to proceed? What would be my best course of action? Do you guys think I have enough evidence to get a chargeback on the card? All I want is my full refund. He can have the bumper back if he wants but I'm not paying to ship it to him. I'll take a huge loss on the deal if I do that. Why should I have to lose $300 because I delt with a lying scammer? It should be the other way around. I just don't understand PayPal's logic, I really don't.

[DPCreations]

You wrote a long story with much information that was irrelevant.

You purchased an item from Craig's list.

It wasn't as expected.

You filed a dispute with PayPal for not as described; you prevailed.

According to PayPal User Agreement which you understood and accepted, you need to pay return shipping with tracking.  That's exactly according to PayPal policy.

So, you don't like that idea so you start a dispute with your credit card.  (Fortunately you did use a credit card for the extra protection.)

When you file a credit card dispute your PayPal dispute will immediately close.

The credit card company will contact the merchant (PayPal) with your dispute.  PayPal may contact the seller for information or allow the credit card bank to accept your dispute.  If you prevail, then you would get a refund and likely keep the bumper.  Seller would get an extra $20 chargeback fee in addition to the forced refund.

Just be aware that PayPal doesn't like disputes of this type for buyer or seller.  Too many disputes and acocunts get limited.  Disputes are considered restricted activities.

[Robotron]

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@DPCreations wrote:

You wrote a long story with much information that was irrelevant.

You purchased an item from Craig's list.

It wasn't as expected.

You filed a dispute with PayPal for not as described; you prevailed.

According to PayPal User Agreement which you understood and accepted, you need to pay return shipping with tracking.  That's exactly according to PayPal policy.

So, you don't like that idea so you start a dispute with your credit card.  (Fortunately you did use a credit card for the extra protection.)

When you file a credit card dispute your PayPal dispute will immediately close.

The credit card company will contact the merchant (PayPal) with your dispute.  PayPal may contact the seller for information or allow the credit card bank to accept your dispute.  If you prevail, then you would get a refund and likely keep the bumper.  Seller would get an extra $20 chargeback fee in addition to the forced refund.

Just be aware that PayPal doesn't like disputes of this type for buyer or seller.  Too many disputes and acocunts get limited.  Disputes are considered restricted activities.

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Sorry for the long story but I wanted to cover all the details. I've been using this PayPal account for 4-5 years with no issues. I'm not worried about my account being limited because I'm a straight up guy and this is the first time I ever opened a dispute with PayPal and taken it this far. The last couple of times this happened the seller and myself came to an agreement and we closed the dispute before it ever got to a claim. The PayPal representative also told me to file a dispute with the credit card company. It was her suggestion over the phone. Had it not been suggested I wouldn't have even known I could do that.

Also, if the shipping for the item actually cost $94.76 I wouldn't really be complaining. I'd eat the $60 loss to recoup my $600+. The dude lied about the dimansions of the package to get it shipped via Ground and now I have to pay triple what he charged me to ship it back to him. That's why I'm **bleep** about having to pay to send it back. He'll sit back and get the bumper, resell it and make money while I'll have to eat $300 because someone ripped me off.

[DPCreations]

Perhaps the seller did lie and the other added notes make interesting read, but they don't change the summary of events and how it all applies to PayPal User Agreement and buyer/seller protection policies.

[Robotron]

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@DPCreations wrote:

Perhaps the seller did lie and the other added notes make interesting read, but they don't change the summary of events and how it all applies to PayPal User Agreement and buyer/seller protection policies.

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Well can you at least give me some advice regarding how I should approach my credit card dispute? They're gonna send me a form in the mail to fill out. Should I provide the CC bank with all this information regarding the PayPal dispute or not mention it? Is that even relevant information that will be considered by the bank? I read another thread by a buyer who got scammed and PayPal didn't do anything so he opened a dispute with his CC company. The CC company ruled in his favor and got him the chargeback and he was able to keep the item. However, a few days later PayPal opened another dispute with his CC company and said that they told him to send the merchandise back to get his refund and the CC company decided in PayPal's favor. I just wanna know if PayPal is gonna try to pull some trick like this with me. The buyer ended up winning his dispute a couple months later but he spent almost 4 months trying to get his money back. Should I mention the shipping cost despcrepancy to the bank? Like how it will cost me triple what he charged me to ship it back? Should I even metion shipping back the item at all or just stick to the facts? I don't want PayPal coming back and disputing my chargeback because they told me to ship the item back at my cost.

[DPCreations]

I have no idea what you should provide on the form as I have not seen the form.

Once you get the form then ask specific questions about what to provide; advice can then be given.  The form should also have instructions.

Just make sure you are truthful.  That means don't make a claim of unauthorized.

[Whac-A-Mole]

first ,I must congratulate you on giving such a good narrative of the event which took place over a  period of several months,most buyers came to this forum full of anger,agitation,emotional and upset,they can hardly tell what transpired.

Since you did such a good job,it gives me the opportunity to point out YOU ARE NOT PERFECT,you **bleep** around too long with the bumper,once you find out it is not as described,you should decide what to do next,not wait for weather or spare time.

As for him shipping UPS ground,it is none of your business how he fooled the system,in fact he is saving your money by charging a lower shipping fee,did he not?

back to the dispute,so Paypal customer service must be reading this forum and advising buyer to file chargeback as the ultimate win solution,if so,why bother to ask Paypal to intervene?

A chargeback hits Paypal,since Paypal is the one who accepts credit card payments for subaccounts like us,and these days Paypal has its hands full of disputes and chargebacks,do they need more?

Credit card issuer,a clerk will be reviewing your case,your documentation of what he said,what you said is not wasted,as a clerk does read,unlike Paypal robot which is nothing but a piece of software,it does not read or study photos.

No one can guarantee what this clerk will do after reading and watching photos,would he/she let you keep the bumper and your money,we dont know,as Paypal ,like you pointed out,has in the past appeal and won the chargeback. 

I have seen cases where the cc issuer decides to give some money to the cardholder for shipping or suggest each party pays half of the cost of shipping,a bumper is not a rubber stamp,it is too much to lose,so you just have t o wait and see,may be call the cc issuer and try to figure which way the wind blows,yours or his? or Paypal.

But Paypal buyer protection is not like Ebay,you pickup shipping ,while Ebay will waste no time and get you a return label,if seller has used Ebay to print UPS label,you may get the same label for the same cost or worse if he did not use Ebay to print label,Ebay WILL GIVE YOU A FIRST CLASS  2 OUNCE LABEL TO RETURN THE BUMPER!   

[Whac-A-Mole]

Oh,some bad news-

to return the item for full refund,it must be in the same condition as sent by the seller,it sounds like you have done something to it so it is NO LONGER IN THE SAME CONDITION AS SENT OR SOLD,so if the seller or the cc clerk is awake,he could use that against you,you change it ,you keep it.

Paypal clerk going around suggesting buyer file chargeback is bad news for Paypal,as Paypal has the merchant account and the bank (s) which provided its merchant account frown on bad behavior,too many chargebacks mean the vendor is poor risk,you hear of reserve,rolling reserve,higher fee and finally adios,of course no one wants to lose PAYPAL as a customer,but no one wants a trouble maker or bad apple,chargebacks are bad bad bad.

[Robotron]

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@sumiko wrote:

Oh,some bad news-

to return the item for full refund,it must be in the same condition as sent by the seller,it sounds like you have done something to it so it is NO LONGER IN THE SAME CONDITION AS SENT OR SOLD,so if the seller or the cc clerk is awake,he could use that against you,you change it ,you keep it.

Paypal clerk going around suggesting buyer file chargeback is bad news for Paypal,as Paypal has the merchant account and the bank (s) which provided its merchant account frown on bad behavior,too many chargebacks mean the vendor is poor risk,you hear of reserve,rolling reserve,higher fee and finally adios,of course no one wants to lose PAYPAL as a customer,but no one wants a trouble maker or bad apple,chargebacks are bad bad bad.

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The item is in the same condition as when I bought it. It's sitting back in it's box wrapped in bubble wrap. I was very careful with it. I'm not stupid. Besides, the picture of the bumper on the CL add had no broken studs. If he takes a before pic and after pic of what the bumper looks like then he'll prove that he knowingly sent a bumper with a broken stud to me. If he takes one of another bumper with good studs and then shows a pic of the one I sent back then he also is proving he's lying because I have proof that I received one with a broken stud. Either way it will make him look like a liar.

The fact that he sent me a broken bumper and advertized it as excellent should superceed everything. At the end of the day I have proof that I received a damaged bumper that was not as described. 

[DPCreations]

I've seen so many issues with people who purchased items on Craig's List that I would anyone's judgement with such purchases.  I would also question someone's judgment about purchasing items with high shipping costs and ignoring the PayPal requirement to pay high return costs.   So, I question the "smartness" comment about not damaging the product.  Not questioning your "no damage" and being careful comments; I do believe they would be correct.  Being smart about being careful is misses the big issue about not understanding PayPal policies for returns.