Firearm policy...

ck-z0rz
Contributor
Contributor

If you buy or sell anything firearm-related (and this can be interpreted pretty wide!!), your account is suspended...

 

Honestly, PayPal. I want a straight answer, a real reason. Why the **bleep** can't I purchase firearms and firearm-related items through PayPal!?

 

I absolutely love PayPal. It's fast, efficient, and super secure. I've had nothing but good experiences with PayPal... A few years ago, when I first attempted to purchase a firearm over the internet (in accordance with ALL applicable state/federal laws regarding out-of-state firearms transactions, 132% legally), MY CREDIT CARD INFO WAS STOLEN!!! Hmmmm, imagine that... Now, if only there was a third-party program that could instantly transfer funds from credit/debit cards or even bank accounts, without compromising financial information. That would be just wonderful!! What's that? There's already a website designed to do that? Where!? Ohhh look, it says here you must drink at least 64fl oz of wheat-grass daily to qualify for their services. 😞

 

And ya know, FailPal... You REALLY **bleep**ed your pooch! Back in '07 and '08 when Obama got elected, people were chomping at the bit trying to buy weapons and ammo, fearing a second 1994 Assault Weapons Ban.... You missed-out on SOOOOO much potential profit! Retailers, even ONLINE-BASED RETAILERS, couldn't keep firearms and ammo on the shelves!!! It got so bad it was actually a small MIRACLE to find 5.56mm or 7.62x39mm ammo!!! And these weren't just cheap purchases; 600 bucks to 2 grand and even more!! People were buying bullets by the THOUSAND PLUS ROUND CASE, at up to 2 dollars per round!!! I'd estimate an average purchase price per firearm/1000rd case of ammo to be around $1,000 to $1500, just single-item purchases. Factor in those who were buying 2-3 firearms with 10+ cases of ammo (it was literally like the country was stocking-up for the zombie apocalypse), and it's easy 2-4 grand... And at 3-4 percent 'PayPal-brand PayPaling Fee,' you dumb hippies could've EASILY afforded another few Ferraris... Each!

 

Honestly, it's one of the DUMBEST business strategies I've ever seen; denying customers your security and simplicity simply because you feel you've gotta make some sort of political statement... Really, it only shows us that you'd rather make a scene than support your customers' rights... You'd rather look like a forward-thinking company by working backwards... I can't feature it...

 

I'll be happy to rescind the comments that PayPal is staffed almost entirely by silly-headed smelly communist hippies, just as soon as I get an answer; a real fact-based reason; as to why you figure you shouldn't cover firearm/ammo/related purchases....

 

 

Sincerely,

- CK

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9 REPLIES 9

profdata
Frequent Contributor
Frequent Contributor

ck-z0rz
Contributor
Contributor

Yeah, that's about what I expected...

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SteveHogan
Contributor
Contributor

Blame our litigious society.  You can be 1000% certain that if a firearm was purchased using PayPal and that firearm was used in a crime and someone was injured or killed, then some weasel lawyer would include PayPal (deep pockets) as a defendant in the resulting lawsuit claiming the PayPal facilitated the injury to his client.   It just is not worth the potential exposure for PayPal to handle these payments.

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ck-z0rz
Contributor
Contributor

The same could be said about archery equipment, decorative/combat-rated swords, pocket knives, and even a Bic pen!!

 

Not to be a **bleep**, but that's a bunk argument. PayPal didn't facilitate a derned thing, since the firearm must be shipped from seller to FFL (Federal Firearms License) holder, who in-turn transfers ownership to the buyer. Unless, however, it's an antique blackpowder firearm, but the last time I heard about anyone being gunned-down in LA with a blackpowder firearm was around 1870's... 😉

 

PayPal was just doing business as usual. They had nothing to do with the transaction, aside from being the chosen medium to transfer funds; If this were the case, Western Union and the USPS would bar money-orders for firearms.

 

Also, it is TOTALLY worth it to handle these transactions! A good rifle (which every hunter needs) usually sells for upwards from $1,000.00.... Sure, there are the AK's and Rugers that sell for 300-600, but that's still a good chunk of change too! Sure beats the fraction of a cent they make on all the 2-dollar purchases.

 

Also also, PP doesn't allow Nazibilia purchases either, for no other reason than they want to look like complete hippie pond-scum... It's a chunk of history, dumbass! Possessing/purchasing Nazibilia doesn't make you an Anti-Semitic piece of genocidal stuff!! Nazibilia is no more harmful than Soviet-abilia or Americana... What about those who collect WW2 Japanese stuff? The Japanese were allies of Germany! But, since they weren't wearing swastikas (originally a PEACEFUL symbol), they're somehow acceptable; even though they suicide-bombed our ships, tortured and murdered American POW's during WW2, as well as destroyed an entire naval base of ours!!!

 

I just don't get it.... I can go on eBay and buy thousands of dollars of Soviet propaganda, but if I purchase nazibilia through PayPal, my account gets shut-down. If I purchase a compound bow, it's just a simple archery toy; If I purchase a firearm, it's nearly a criminal offense!!

 

It's a political look-better move from a bunch of spineless cowards...

 

 

- CK

 

“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity”

- Sigmund Freud.

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rt66
Contributor
Contributor

I have to agree. Banks and other financial institutions do not care about your politics and allow you to purchase any legal item from a legal source. Many people get killed on motorcycles and automobiles, I don't see them restricting that activity.

 

As far as I am concerned, I am being discriminated against.(send me my money or I will sue!) Get over it! unless there is a special way that paypal funds can be stolen because of firearms purchases, paypal is wrong here.

 

Maybe they should limit charitable contributions, there is much more fraud here than anywhere else. Paypal, save me from myself! I am far from a gun nut, I almost never vote Republican(if I don't like either candidate, I just do not vote or vote 3rd party). but the 2nd amendment IS a guarenteed right here in the US, so please do not try to shove your politics down my throat! If there was another game in town, I would use it.

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cejohn
Contributor
Contributor

It not about politics, it about getting suede.  If they sell you a gun as the middle man how does that make them look when someone goesMan Mad out and shoot somebody for no reason at all or just because the think that they r communist, black, Asian or whatever.  Somebody is got to pay. Now that is when it becomes politics vs justice.  Man Mad

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tmaca
Contributor
Contributor

Absolute crap and total lies.  Paypal is not worrried about lawsuits.  They just hate guns and, like most left wing gun haters, want to make life as difficult as is within their power for people who sell guns. Given the lack of success of "your gun killed my husband, wife, child, or whoever lawsuits, even against actual gunmakers and gun sellers (unless a gun was sold in violation of the law) there is no way in the world anyone could even get a court to entertain a suit against a company that merely transferred money that was the proceeds of a firearm sale.  Any such suit would result in a summary dismissal without any trial.  If a suit against the money handler were even possible, numerous banks would have been sued, not to mention the several on line gun auction sites.

 

Furthermore,the only things that could even possibly trigger any attempted  lawsuit against anyone would be a complete firearm or a receiver, both of which can be traced and whose history can be reconstructed.  Paypal's acceptable use policy says that firearms and "certain firearm parts" cannot be paid for through Paypal.  Nowhere can I find any definition or list of what those certain parts are.  This undefined category allows them to declare transactions for ANY firearm part to be unacceptable under the trems of their stated policy.  I personally know of one case where Paypal PERMANENTLY revoked someone's account for receiving payment for, of all things, a Glock recoil spring, and sequestered all of the funds in his account (not just those for the spring) for 60 days.  They did this without any warning whatsoever, to someone who had over 1,000 trouble free transactions over Ebay, and over 500 through Paypal, and this was his first "offense". When he pointed out that the item was "Ebay legal" (in fact, I believe it had been sold on Ebay), they responded that even though they were owned by Ebay they were a seperate company and had their own policies.  He asked them to reconsider the account revocation more than once, with no success.

 

Even if Paypal does have someone in their legal department who is so ignorant of case law and legal precedents, and even black ink law, that he tells them they can be sued if they handle payment for a firearm, nobody could be so ignorant as to think that handling the funds for a recoil spring could ever have that result.

 

These are not the actions of a firm worried about any law suit.  These are the actions of a firm attempting to do everything within its power to negatively affect commerce in guns and gun parts.  If Paypal feels that this is what is proper, they certainly have the right to feel that way, no matter who thinks they shouldn't.  And they have every right to limit the types of transactions they wish to handle, as long as they tell people ahead of time what those types of transactions are.  So why doesn't their policy just say that any and all gun parts and components transactions are banned?  Why do they use such an ambiguous, and never explained, term as "certain firearm parts"?

 

Personally, and this IS only a personal conclusion, I believe that they just don't have the guts to say up front what they're really doing because they fear that the incredibly numerous gun owners in this country might just be annoyed enough to boycott Paypal.  In fact, I defy Paypal to post this comment, and, if they still maintain that they are not anti-gun, explain why someone was punished for receiving payment for such an innocuous part as a recoil spring.

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centerpatriot
New Community Member

I read the policy today to determine whether I could sell a barrel using PayPal.

 

I'm a tax attorney and I get paid to interpret complicated statutes, regulations, court cases, etc.

 

Anyway...the policy appears to be intentionally written to be ambiguous and confusing.

 

PayPal would have no more legal liability than would my credit card company or UPS for shipping it.

 

Obviously it is just a political statement.  Personally, I find it repugnant that PayPal has a problem with a perfectly legal transaction just because it doesn't square with their political beliefs.  GPal (from google) doesn't have a problem with it, so I'm going to use them and I encourage others to do the same.

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tmaca
Contributor
Contributor

Yup. No matter what happened to or with any gun after one of its parts, or even the entire gun, had been paid for via Paypal, there is no way Paypal could be liable for anyhting.

 

However, it appears that they have created their own liability by taking action against users who "violate" this ridiculously ambiguous policy, including those who have used Paypal to handle payments for sales of items which were allowed at, and in fact sold through, Ebay.  It is a basic principle of contract law that no penalty can be implemented against a party to a contract unless the things which can trigger such action are included in the contract.  Terminology which would lead to confusion and uncertainty on the part of a reasonable person does not fill the bill.

 

In this case, the fact that the parent company, Ebay, has the same policy, but one  which DOES go on to explain which parts are disallowed, it becomes clear that this ambiguity was intentionally created by Paypal, knowing full well that many people are led to handle the financial aspects of Ebay sales through Paypal, and that such people would most likely rely on what Ebay allows in order to determine what is allowed at Paypal.  This makes it, in my opinion, an egregious act, subjecting Paypal to  to liability for punitive damages above and beyond whatever normally compensible losses the user may have incurred as a result of Paypal's sanctions against him.

 

This is a perfect example of both corporate deceit and corporate arrogance, deceit in claiming that their policy is not completely anti gun, and arrrogance in believing that they can do whatever they like, ignoring inconsequential little things such as contract law.  I can only hope that someone who has been damaged as a result of enforcement of this inadequate policy initiates legal action against Paypal.  At the very least, such an action should force Paypal to either back off on the thing or to clearly state that using Paypal for payment for the sale of of any and all firearme parts are considered to be an inappropriate use.  (As a privately owned, non-governmental entity, they can, after all, have whatever policy they wish, as long as it is clearly stated to the individual before he accepts and agrees to their rules.)  That would stop them from trying to pretend that they are not entirely anti gun in order to keep the business of persons who might be very upset over such a policy.

 

Right now, the vast majority of Paypal users use it because of convenience, security, and having been directed to Paypal by Ebay and other sites.  Paypal's ambiguous policy and ludicrous explanations are clearly intended to avoid seriously offending a large portion of those users.  If Paypal is forced to be honest about its intentions, it may well result in large numbers of users migrating to a different internet based transaaction service, as you suggest.

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