PayPal pending payment
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I would like to hear from someone at PayPal the answers to several specific questions relating to the pending payment policy. I have read the various threads on this, and the relevant section of the Terms of Service Agreement, but these are questions not answered elsewhere.
FIrst, the background. Like so many others here, I was caught by surprise when payment was held up for an item I sold on eBay. The item sold for $455 and because it is heavy and bulky, the shipping charge was $225 (in the actual fact, it cost me more than that amount to pack and ship and I ate the difference). The winning bidder paid immediately via PayPal. PayPal immediately marked this as a "pending" payment. The item was shipped less than 48 hours after the auction closed and delivered yesterday. I supplied the tracking information to PayPal/eBay as instructed. The payment still shows simply as "pending" and when I click on "Details" I am told that status applies for another 14 days, OR 3 days after PayPal can determine that the item was delivered, OR 3 days after the buyer leaves positive feedback.
There is no way for me to verify that PayPal/eBay knows now that the item was, in fact, delivered yesterday. There is no way to know when and if a change in pending status has occurred. The policy is ambiguous as to whether delivery even matters for an eBay auction item, or if only positive buyer feedback will release the funds in less than 21 days.
QUESTION 1: If the item was sold pursuant to an eBay auction, is the pending status changed when the SOONER OF or LATER OF the two listed events occur: provable delivery or positive buyer feedback? How can I verify that PayPal now knows the item was delivered and, therefore, that the 3-day clock has started to count down?
PayPal positions itself as the most convenient way for a seller to accept payments, especially on eBay transactions. I was charged a $20+ fee for this transaction. I had to front the $225 shipping charge. I now have to wait an arbitrary amount of time for payment, with no feedback from PayPal as to status before or after the buyer submitted his PayPal payment transaction. In the very best case, the funds will hit my bank account two weeks from when the auction closed because of the holiday weekend.
QUESTION 2: Why is this good for me as a seller? You are charging me premium transaction fees, what service am I AS A SELLER getting in return for this policy and the fees charged?
The most basic tenet of contract law is that the parties have to agree to the terms in order for there to be a contract. PayPal's Terms of Service Agreement relating to pending payments is hopelessly vague, to the degree that I question that it constitutes a contract. It would not be a valid contract for me to say, for example, "I can do whatever I want for any reason" and for you to agree, and for me to then take your car and your house. I could argue that your agreement was stupidity on your part (which is, essentially, PayPal's response to sellers in the various threads and is vaguely insulting), but I could not defend such capricious actions in court based on that "contract." Particularly in a dependent situation like this
The PayPal pending payment policy does not, for example, let me know, as a seller, whether I or any given transaction are subject to being pended, what I can do to prevent it, or what specific criteria PayPal will use. PayPal relies on terms like "high risk" that clearly mean something very different to the sellers who have spoken out in this forum than they mean to PayPal. In no way would I, as a reasonable seller, read the text of the TOSA and interpret it as meaning what PayPal is, in fact, doing. You are doing things that are not reasonable interpretations that a reasonable seller would be expected to conclude are consistent with the TOSA's language. They appear to be arbitrary and capricious and unrelated to the stated policy.
In short, a seller "agreeing" to the TOSA can have no basis for understanding what it now turns out PayPal means by those words.
QUESTION 3: How does the TOSA, regarding pending payment holds, constitute a valid contract, given that you provide no way for the seller to know what he/she is agreeing to and that reasonable sellers clearly think you are interpreting this language in ways opposite to the way they understand it?
Given that PayPal relies on its "sole discretion," there is an implied obligation for the policy and its enforcement to rationally relate to its purpose.
As with so many others, there is no evidence in my case of any kind of a problem. This was a personal sale, but I own a company that accepts credit cards based in large part on my own credit history, and have had no problem with approvals for those transactions from banks, or any problems with any specific transactions. There is no history of complaints against me personally or my company, I have no criminal history, no financial fraud, solid credit rating, bank account has been verified. In other words, PayPal has reached a decision about my "risk" that is opposite what other financial institutions that provide similar services have concluded.
QUESTION 4: How does the pending payment discretion policy of PayPal rationally relate to actual risks to buyers, its putative purpose? What does the term "high likelihood" mean anyway - 50%? 10%? 1%? What statistical evidence does PayPal have that the criteria used are predictive of a "high likelihood" (whatever that means) of buyer dissatisfaction? Is there any such evidence at all that eBay frequency is a reliable predictor, or is this just someone's guess?
Clearly, this policy benefits PayPal financially. You get the benefit of interest on the funds while they are in pending status. It is like travellers checks - the financial institution makes money on the float. Therefore, PayPal has set itself up with a clear conflict of interest, between fairly interpreting ambiguous or discretionary sections of the TOSA, e.g., what constitutes "risk" to buyers, and what is financially beneficial for PayPal.
QUESTION 5: Will PayPal remove this conflict by paying interest on the funds held? If not, how can you claim to not have an egregious conflict of interest in your unilateral interpretation of the TOSA?
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Well I'm glad to FINALLY say that PayPal decided to STOP holding MY MONEY HOSTAGE as of: .3/13/10! I guess my REPEATED, (probably annoying...yet I don't care) emails 2 PayPal; paid off! I got MY MONEY, so now I will either look for other options OTHER than PayPal, or some other way 2 sell/buy things! Because I am DONE w/PayPal! This was my FIRST (as a seller, that is) AND MY LAST!!!!!!!! Hope every1 else finds a solution to their issues!
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I guess posting and hoping paypal is paying attention is a dream...
I recently sold an item on Ebay. I have 100% positive rating as a seller on Ebay and my buyer emailed me she got her purchase. Originally, I had printed the shipping label from Paypal but when I brought it to the post office, it was the wrong size box so it cost more to ship. So, they had to put a different tracking number on my printed label. For some reason, I couldn't track the package with the number on my receipt so I asked the buyer to let me know when she received my package. She emailed me today through Ebay's site that she did receive the package. So I called paypal and asked if I could forward the email to someone and get my money released. The person on the phone was just like a robot, kept repeating "paypal only releases holds after feedback is left or the item can be tracked that it was delivered through the tracking number." I explained my situation but she just would repeat the same thing. Finally, like a child, I just slammed the phone down as hard as I could...
So, my buyer has her item and I am left with no money until paypal releases the "pending" hold. I am deleting my account as soon as I get my money. So sad that such a good business is run by such moronic, inflexible people.
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The OR is wrong. I have a $1450 item shipped and received. UPS tracking numbers both on ebay and sent to paypal. Its been 3 days since receipt and no release of hold. This so **bleep**.
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So sorry for you...my measly $100 doesn't compare but it is still frustrating. Oh well I guess I will just accept it and move on...nothing we can do against a big business such as this...
Good luck..
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Here's a quote of something I just wrote and posted. We CAN do something. Help us.
I've been reading this thread for two days now. I am about to start selling again on eBay after a 6 year hiatus and I have over 3000 positive feedbacks. I am now soooooo discouraged over all of this idiotic and seemingly criminal actions of PayPal collecting interest on all the money it is holding from sellers for such a long time for such stupid reasons. I'm really hoping to find a large list of whatever places people can recommend that I can use to sell on eBay and not use PayPal yet have people pay me by using other places online that wil still be allowed by eBay. I don't have a store or my own credit card system to use. Anyway, I'd appreciate hearing what other people are using. I've only heard mention of google offering something and I'll try to find where and what that is. IN THE MEANTIME, HERE IS A LIST OF LOCATIONS OF PAYPAL AND EBAY HEADQUARTERS.
"On October 3, 2002, PayPal became a wholly owned subsidiary of eBay.[3] Its corporate headquarters are in San Jose, California, United States at eBay's North First Street satellite office campus. The company also has significant operations in Omaha, Nebraska; Scottsdale, Arizona; and Austin, Texas in the U.S., " eBays headquarters are still, I believe, in San Jose, CA.
What I highly suggest is that people sit down and send an email to the Attorney General of California and also in whatever state they live in with a short paragraph about what is happening and these links directly to the thread we are talking on. That link is
https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/eBay/PayPal-pending-payment/m-p/16477#M3220. The link to the main community site is
https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/eBay/bd-p/eBay. I am pretty sure the first link brings you right to the beginning of this thread.
Generally, to find the email address of your state's Attorney General you type in your state.gov (i.e. CA.gov) and then search for Attorney General. 90% of the time 's office lists their email address for you to contact them directly. I have found they always get the message and they always respond when you write to them. Let's just all get together and make PayPal even more popular than it is by having each States' highest legal attorney read a little bit more about them that they'll find in the links above. I do hope people act on this, it does take one drop of water to begin a flood and PayPal needs to be flooded by interest of each individual state's Attorney General. Let's do this.
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@Arlykat wrote:Here's a quote of something I just wrote and posted. We CAN do something. Help us.
I've been reading this thread for two days now. I am about to start selling again on eBay after a 6 year hiatus and I have over 3000 positive feedbacks. I am now soooooo discouraged over all of this idiotic and seemingly criminal actions of PayPal collecting interest on all the money it is holding from sellers for such a long time for such stupid reasons. I'm really hoping to find a large list of whatever places people can recommend that I can use to sell on eBay and not use PayPal yet have people pay me by using other places online that wil still be allowed by eBay. I don't have a store or my own credit card system to use. Anyway, I'd appreciate hearing what other people are using. I've only heard mention of google offering something and I'll try to find where and what that is. IN THE MEANTIME, HERE IS A LIST OF LOCATIONS OF PAYPAL AND EBAY HEADQUARTERS.
"On October 3, 2002, PayPal became a wholly owned subsidiary of eBay.[3] Its corporate headquarters are in San Jose, California, United States at eBay's North First Street satellite office campus. The company also has significant operations in Omaha, Nebraska; Scottsdale, Arizona; and Austin, Texas in the U.S., " eBays headquarters are still, I believe, in San Jose, CA.
What I highly suggest is that people sit down and send an email to the Attorney General of California and also in whatever state they live in with a short paragraph about what is happening and these links directly to the thread we are talking on. That link is
https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/eBay/PayPal-pending-payment/m-p/16477#M3220. The link to the main community site is
https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/eBay/bd-p/eBay. I am pretty sure the first link brings you right to the beginning of this thread.
Generally, to find the email address of your state's Attorney General you type in your state.gov (i.e. CA.gov) and then search for Attorney General. 90% of the time 's office lists their email address for you to contact them directly. I have found they always get the message and they always respond when you write to them. Let's just all get together and make PayPal even more popular than it is by having each States' highest legal attorney read a little bit more about them that they'll find in the links above. I do hope people act on this, it does take one drop of water to begin a flood and PayPal needs to be flooded by interest of each individual state's Attorney General. Let's do this.
Hi Arlykat,
I have been following this fiasco since January and I too post links and continue to offer support in whatever way I can even though I am a casual seller and have moved on to other auctions and Craig's List.
Since you are interested in the links, news and other information I suggest strongly that you check out the forum entitled HORRIBLE IDEA TO HOLD FUNDS FOR 21 DAYS!!
It has been the most active of forums in this community up to 130 pages and by far has a wealth of information that I am afraid is not being read by posters on other forums. Your suggestions are good and have been posted and followed. I have posted links to any eBay news, especially what is taking place in international venues.
Most important is that there is a class action suit and you can search through the forum "class action" for contact information of one the law firms that initially had interest in this matter back in November and is now ready to file but are still taking names and stories to be included in the class action. You can also go to letssuepaypal.com for information on the law firm, names and numbers. If you check on any of my posts in that forum you will see that I did some research on eBay/PayPal's litigation history and in 2002 eBay/Paypal did the same thing-held funds. A class action was put together and in 2004 eBay settled for 9.0 million+ for the class and 4.2 million for the attorneys.
Personally I have been attacked for stating that people should at least register for the class as many think it is a waste of time--it is not. Additionally I do not care if the lawyers walk away with the big bucks-it takes a great deal of money and time to pull together a class action--I am involved for the principle--it is just wrong. Another good site that updates throughout the day and gives current information on eBay's stock and stories is http://www.techinvestornews.com/eBay/page-one.html There you can read about eBay's stock price and all up to date news--technical, international and legal.
This link will make you feel so sorry for poor John Donohue as it appears his compensation last year dropped by 50%.
This link talks about how John Donahoe and 5 other executives had to take a bad pay cut in 2009--so sad for them-- however the President of PayPal got a bonus--hmm maybe because he is in charge of PayPal holding our money!! http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ebay-cuts-pay-of-top-execs-2010-03-19?dist=afterbell
it is a complete tangled mess but what is interesting is that paypal has to register differently with each country it is in and follow their monetary policies. Countries such as Germany, UK, Australia and India are already investigating their practices--probably another reason why eBay is gearing up to do major business in Asia.
Hope this helps to provide you more information, Knowledge is Power.
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FEMSOL WILL YOU MARRY ME?SUPERDEALDUDE CAN BE BEST MAN AND THEN YOU COULD SEE HOW GREAT PAY-PAL REALLY IS AND QUIT BASHING THIS POOR INNOCENT VICTIM OF ABUSE.
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@paul wrote:FEMSOL WILL YOU MARRY ME?SUPERDEALDUDE CAN BE BEST MAN AND THEN YOU COULD SEE HOW GREAT PAY-PAL REALLY IS AND QUIT BASHING THIS POOR INNOCENT VICTIM OF ABUSE.
Oh poor disallusioned Paul--you could not handle me so I must decline your proposal--also I believe your best man and partner in crime is SurplusDealDude--not SuperDealDude.
Actually based on a very recent news article PayPal has become so successful that we may soon see Paypal spin out from under the control of eBay. eBay is the culprit under John Donahoe's reign and as such eBay is sustaining losses, has competitors popping up all over and because of their control over PayPal and holding funds of the eBay sellers is trying to put out fires everywhere. On top of everything else poor Mr. Donahoe saw his income last year slashed from 10 mil to 5 mil while PayPal's President's income went up. In my opinion this would be great news for PayPal as it is accepted now for so many internet transactions from paying for a download or paying bills and shopping. PayPal could then go about correcting the international monetary problems they are experiencing in other countries and clean up their compliance with their regulations.
Links if interested:
Excutive compensations for eBay cut: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ebay-cuts-pay-of-top-execs-2010-03-19?dist=afterbell
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I' m sure that I cANT Femsol.Anyway to get on the issue here I have faith in the fact that Pay-Pal will separate from e-BAY in the future as a subsidiary and remember how it grew in popularity on its own.In 2008 is when I really started in the internet with my first computer and of course knew of e-bay and pay-pal before I even had a connection and the policies then at that time were wonderful.As the economy worsened so then did fraud and Pay-Pal responded to tremendous losses and the fraud is just as much a challenge today as then and couldn't go unchecked.So what we need is a good alternative to pay-pal .GOOGLE CHECK OUT.GO ON YOUR GOOGLE TOOLBAL AND TYPE IT IN AND I RECIEVE GOOD FEEDBACK FROM THEM.HOWEVER BEWARE OF OTHER COMPANIES THAT WILL SEEK TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS SITUATION AND SAY HOW GREAT THEY ARE AND THEY ARE NOT AS GOOD AS PAY-PAL EVEN NOW.IT COST ME 2 THOUSAND BUCKS TO FIND OUT.ON MY WEBSITE I HAVE PAY-PAL WEBSITE PAY-PAL STANDARD AND ANOTHER COMPANY THAT I HAVE TO COLLECT PATRONS INFO ON PAPER AND GO TO US-EPAYS WEBSITE AND KEY IN THE CLIENTS INFO ON 98% OF MY SALES ARE DONE THAT WAY BECAUSE PEOPLE SHY AWAY FROM PAY-PAL WEB PAYMENTS STANDARD BECAUSE PAY-PAL REPUTATATION ISN'T KOSHER AT THIS TIME.I URGE YOU TO TRY GOOGLE CHECKOUT AND I HEAR THAT ITS GREAT.THANX FEMSOL FOR YOUR WONDERFUL INPUT ON ALL MATTERS.PAUL

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