What to Do When Paypal Takes Money Out of Your Bank's Account WIthout Authorization?

[Corpus_no_Logos]

So I've had a strange problem thanks to Paypal, which has thus far cost me $108.  It began when I made two small purchases on Ebay, which I could easily cover with the amount of money in my Paypal account.  Everything looked normal to me, seeming the exact same as it always did.  Having done this dozens of times before, I didn't think anything of it.

Then two weeks later, I got two e-mails from Paypal telling me my bank account had insufficient funds to cover the transaction, and I needed to make sure it had sufficient money in it within three days when they reran the charges.

I was baffled.  I had no idea why Paypal would be charging anything to my bank account.  Paypal was supposed to charge my Paypal account like it always has.  I tried logging into their site to switch the payment option, but I couldn't, and because I was busy and out of town, I didn't pursue the matter.

When I got home this week, I found out my bank had charged me $108 in NSF (insufficient fund) fees because the account didn't have enough money to cover the transactions.  Each time Paypal tried got me hit with a $27 fee, so with two purchases run two times each, I was hit with $108 in fees.

I couldn't figure out why this had happened.  I called Paypal to find out, and I was told it was because I had used their Pay After Delivery program, and that program requires you pay from a bank account.  I told the person I had never enrolled in such a program.  He said I had been enrolled in automatically.  I told him I had never seen or heard of it before.  He said I must not have shopped anywhere that allowed the use of it since I got enrolled.  I said I never agreed to have Paypal transfer money out my bank account.  He said tough **bleep**.

Well, no.  He was more courteous than that.  So were the other three people I spoke with at Paypal.  They were all very nice and friendly.  They were even sympathetic.  But they all told me the same basic thing, "Tough luck."  They say there was a text box on the screen when I made my purchases which said my bank account would be used (I've seen it; it's incredily easy to miss); therefore Paypal was allowed to take money out of my bank account.

But it wasn't.  One nondescript textbox on a confirmation page doesn't override the displayed settings a user's account has had for five or more years.  You don't get to enroll a person into a program without their knowledge or consent then trick them into changing their payment plan by making one small notice of the change on a single page and pretending that means they've given informed consent.  

Now normally, it wouldn't really matter because I would have spent the same amount of money.  Only, there are differences.  First, taking money out of my bank account means I have different rights and protections than if the money was taken out of my Paypal account.  Second, and far more importantly, I was charged $108 in fees.

That's $108 Paypal has cost me by performing unauthorized transactions with my bank account.  And Paypal refuses to reimburse me.  They've effectively defrauded me, and according to them, I just have to take it.  Even better?  After my calls, Paypal unenrolled me from the program.  So when I tested what would happen if I tried to buy something from Ebay again, guess what happened?  It defaulted to using my bank account.

That's right.  If I had been naive enough to think the two hours I spent on the phone talking to people today actually mattered, and that Paypal actively rmeoving me from this program would mean they would stop trying to take money out of my bank account, I have been a fool.  And I might well have gotten myself charged another $54 or $108.  All it would have taken is for me to not have been actively looking to make sure Paypal was still trying to take money from my bank account without my authorization.

So yeah, I'm not happy.  In the morning, I'm going to call Paypal (again) to inform them of the situation since the User Agreement we have to try to resolve any disputes with Paypal first.  If that doesn't go anywhere, I apparently have to file a fraud packet with the bank to report the charges as fraudulent, and since I know who made them, I might have to file a police report as well.

If you count the time I've already spent on the phone with Paypal and my bank, that means I'm looking at spending at least six hours on this, because of $108 in fees accrued for about $20 in purchases.  That's ridiculous.  But it's what Paypal is forcing me to do with this ridiculous practice of taking money from people's bank accounts without any sort of warning or request for permission.

[kernowlass]

When pay after delivery came in you had a pop up box DURING the payment process just the once, if you accidently clicked on ok and continued to pay then you accepted pay after delivery. 

I so very nearly automatically clicked ok when the box came up and only just stopped myself in time and declined it.

So if that is what happened to you then you accepted PAD and those payments always come from your bank account.

ALSO every time you pay BEFORE you click submit it tells you where the payment will be deducted from.

So when you paid for your item it would have said the funds would be deducted from your bank account at the time of payment and if you continued to press submit to pay then you agreed to it.

Otherwise you could have seen that paypal were going to use your bank account and not your balance and not clicked to pay until you had sorted out why.

So do this >>>

To change the default way you pay for purchases:

1.Log into your PayPal account at www.paypal.co.uk.
2.Click the COG SYMBOL 'SETTINGS' near the top right of the page. (spanner thing next to log out).
3.Scroll down to 'Payment Settings'.
4.Click 'Pay after Delivery',
5.Under 'Paying after delivery is my preferred way to pay', click 'Turn this option off'.

________________________________

I give up my time to help you so a thank you or kudos would be cool.

Marking one of my replies as a solution would be appreciated if I sorted your problem.

[Corpus_no_Logos]

kernowlass, I don't recall ever seeing a popup requiring I say okay to this.  I suppose it is possible I clicked on a button and somehow didn't notice, but I doubt it.  I especially doubt it since even after I had the option to use Pay After Delivery removed, Paypal still tried to default my payments to my bank account.  That's clearly contrary to what they state they'll do when I go to my profile page, casting doubt on your claim I ever had to agree in the first place.

I don't doubt I was displayed a small, nondescript text box which informed me of where the money would be taken from.  That, however, does not mean I gave informed consent when I clicked the Pay button.

[kernowlass]

Well whether you accidently signed up or not is debatable.

BUT when you paid for your item it always tells you just above the amount that you are going to pay where the funds will be debited from, so if you click to pay you are giving paypal consent to deduct from that funding source.

I can't understand why you say you have not given informed consent? If you read and check the amount + where the funds are going to be deducted from then you would be informed and its your responsibility to read it, if you don't then its not really paypals fault. 

I always check where its coming from and I always click on "change" and swap it to my credit card. 

[Corpus_no_Logos]

kernowlass, I'm not sure whether or not I accidentally signed up is debatable.  When I spoke with people at Paypal, they told me I was automatically enrolled in the program.  I guess they may have misspoke?  Regardless, it certainly not debateable that you are wrong when you say:

BUT when you paid for your item it always tells you just above the amount that you are going to pay where the funds will be debited from, so if you click to pay you are giving paypal consent to deduct from that funding source.

That is not how it would appear on my screen.  Moreover, it is not true that merely displaying text saying you will withdraw money from a bank account inherently means a user clicking okay is giving informed consent.  You may say:

I can't understand why you say you have not given informed consent?

But anyone with basic familiarity of the law of these matters knows simply showing text to a person is not enough to automatically create a binding agreement.  In this case, I had used the service dozens of times before with text appearing in the same location in the same manner.  That different text was substitued in without any warning doesn't mean I automatically agreed to the new text.  You can say:

If you read and check the amount + where the funds are going to be deducted from then you would be informed and its your responsibility to read it, if you don't then its not really paypals fault.

But yes, it is PayPal's fault.  Switching out text in a paperwork in a way you know will likely mislead a person to not realizing they are signing a different contract is fraud.  You don't get to simply trick people into thinking they're agreeing to text which says one thing when it actually says another.

The very definition of informed consent requires the individual be reasonably informed.  It is not reasonable to expect people to notice subtle changes in boilerplate cover text.  It certainly isn't reasonable to require people look for changes in boilerplate that, by the agreements you've held with them for half a decade or longer, shouldn't possibly change.

[kernowlass]

I meant debatable in that nothing can be proved one way or the other so left it at that.

Will have to agree to disagree on this one.

If you don't read the information paypal supply for you on the payment page when you pay for an item then that is your choice and your problem in my opinon. You are given the information to make an informed choice, you chose not to read it.

You differ so will end it there.

[Corpus_no_Logos]

kernowlass, we can end our discussion here, of course, but the issue won't end here.  Paypal has cost me money with what I believe to be a clear cut case of being defrauded (even if not intentionally).  I don't intend to lose money due to being defrauded by a company I'm expected to trust to handle my money.  You can say:

If you don't read the information paypal supply for you on the payment page when you pay for an item then that is your choice and your problem in my opinon. You are given the information to make an informed choice, you chose not to read it.

All you want, but you're doing nothing to address the simple legal issue I raised: informed consent requires the party providing consent be reasonably informed of what they are consenting to.  Showing a person text does not prior to them clicking a button does not inherently mean they've given informed consent any more than showing people text on a piece of paper means they've given informed consent when they sign a piece of paper.

If you want to just disagree without doing anything to justify your position or explain why my position might be wrong, you can, and we can leave it at that.  We can leave the discussion with your contribution being nothing more than, "I think you're wrong."

I just don't know why you'd bother to pariticipate in discussions if that's how you're going to respond to people contradicting you.  It seems far better to at least say, "I don't believe that's true.  Can you provide evidence which shows it is?"

[kernowlass]

I didn't want to participate in a discussion i just responded to your post so you were not ignored and i could get on to the next person to help.

I don't have to provide evidence.

In law its up to YOU to read the information that was supplied, you chose not to....no more to add.

Bye.  

[Corpus_no_Logos]

That is a fascinating mentality kernowlass.  You didn't want to participate in a discussion yet you responded to me, multiple times, which is, by definition, participating in a discussion.  In the future, let me suggest if you don't want to participate in a discussion you don't participate in a discussion.  As for your claim:

In law its up to YOU to read the information that was supplied, you chose not to....no more to add.

That's neither helpful nor necessarily true as it doesn't even really contradict anything I said.  There are plenty of reasons why a person might not read something they are provided, such as if they have a reasonable belief it is identical to what they have been provided on numerous occasions before.  That's why when policies are changed, companies are required to draw attention to those changes to their users.

But since you don't want to participate in a discussion and have said goodbye, I assume you won't be responding, so I guess there was little reason to point that out.  So let's move on to a more general update.  Today, I got e-mails from Paypal telling me it tried to access my bank account four more times.  Why?  To withdraw money for these same two purchases.  That's right.  Paypal apparently tried to withdraw money for purchases I had already paid for.

And guess what?  This is after I filed a dispute with Paypal and we reached an agreement where they'd pay me to reimburse costs for the charges caused by this.  That is, after Paypal, my bank and I all talked to one another, Paypal agreed to pay outstanding costs caused by it trying to withdraw money from my bank.  Then before it payed anything, it turned around and tried to withdraw money from my bank account for purchases I had already paid for. 

Oh, and when it couldn't withdraw money from my bank account to pay for those purchases I had already paid for?  It took the money out of my Paypal account.  So I've now paid for them twice.  And if I hadn't had my bank block Paypal from accessing my bank account, I'd have had $216 in fees because of Paypal trying to access my bank account without authorization.

I don't have words for how insane this is.

[vineet]

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