When a buyer CHOOSES not to pay for tracking why do I lose out when Item not received?

[racefan_dan]

Q: When an eBay (or other) buyer is presented shipping options and he himself chooses to decline tracked delivery postal service, why is the buyer penalized through forfeiture of any Seller Protection? Both eBay and PayPal will give a refund to the buyer when the seller cannot prove that the item was delivered, even if the seller has proof of postage such as a Canada Post postal acceptance receipt (bearing the unique shipment code matching the barcode on the PayPal-printed shipping label). Surely the buyer should forfeit any right to claim an "item not received" if they choose to NOT pay for a shipping service that includes delivery confirmation. (note: I believe that if the seller dictates the shipping service used, then all risk should be entirely on the seller).

If Canadian sellers insist that international (overseas) buyers pay for a shipping service WITH delivery confirmation, so that they are protected, then the actual shipping cost to overseas buyers in most destinations will be approx C$50 for a relatively small 500g parcel!... and 3-4x that to certain other countries!! So with the exception of some high-value items (to which a high shipping cost may be trivial), that makes it cost-prohibitive for overseas buyers to buy from us, or it means that we Canadian sellers take all the risk and will NOT be protected, despite PayPal's "Seller Protection: Eligible" notification (appearance) that they are.

Background for my question:

Back in December, I listed a number of identical items on eBay. I am not a store, just a private seller, who had sold perhaps 10 items in 15 years on eBay, but who saw a window of opportunity to make a small profit by selling a new-to-market item (wireless headphones) that were currently only available in limited quantities here in N.America, by making them available to overseas buyers. eBay.ca's built-in Shipping Tool was having issues with International shipping (not providing sufficient options when Canada, USA and Worldwide were selected) when I first listed, so I diligently looked up various Canada Post shipping options for numerous countries around the world and shared the costs in my listing, saying to contact me if you were bidding from a country not listed.

After selling a few through auction, I listed another via BuyItNow. It was quickly purchased by a buyer from Pakistan, which was a country that I had not posted shipping costs for. The buyer had been registered on eBay since 2010 and had a Feedback score of 48, all Positive, I was happy to see. In a number of back-and-forth messages that followed prior to payment, we discussed shipping options. I gave the buyer the only 4 CP shipping options available (note: prices were actual cost, current at the time, which have gone up since).

• C$22.30 for Small-Packet-International-Air (untracked)
• C$53.47 for International-Parcel-Surface(insured but not tracked)
• C$75.35 for International-Parcel-Air (fully insured but not tracked)
• C$176.86 for Priority Worldwide Pak, the ONLY Canada Post option that included international tracking (and/or delivery confirmation).

- The buyer rightfully dismissed the insured options as what does he care about insuring his purchase when both eBay and PayPal do that anyhow, at no extra cost to him.

- He dismissed the Priority Worldwide tracked/delivery option due to the extreme high cost, which was almost as much as his item cost. Consider also that in many countries (including Pakistan), import tariff and local taxes are assessed on postal imports, often on the shipping-inclusive total. So a low shipping cost is generally of great importance when buying internationally. As a direct comparison, a US seller using USPS's First-Class-Package-Int-Registerered (that is signed, delivery confirmation) could send the same package to Pakistan (or nearly anywhere else in the world) for approx US$37/<C$50. There's no way a Canadian such as myself can compete with that!

So, HE CHOSE the most economical option, the C22.30 untracked Small-Packets-Int. Air service.

He paid his total via PayPal and I saw that my sale was "Seller Protection: Eligible". Good, I thought.

Having printed the PayPal shipping label, when I went to the post office the next day, I asked for a Postal Acceptance Receipt from the clerk, as proof of mailing (the receipt shows the Canada Post location, the time/date, and the scanned-at-the-counter barcode matching the one on the shipping label, naturally). When I came home, I messaged the buyer through eBay, attaching a photo of the postal receipt, which I thought was a decent thing to do in lieu of no tracking/other online proof of shipment, and proved to eBay/PayPal that the item (or at least an item) was on its way to the provided address. I did the same for all of my other similar items sold (before or after this sale), which were sent to UK(x3), NL, AUSTRALIA(x3), NZ and MALAYSIA — and my buyers all appreciated it, and they all received their items without issue.

Long story short(er): 5 weeks after purchase, the buyer filed an eBay Case, saying my parcel never arrived. Despite the messages I left in the Case file saying that I had contacted CP (Ref# included) and the International Mail Office in Pakistan and was waiting to hear back from them, eBay filed in his favour and his C$252.30 purchase total was taken from my bank account and refunded to him. Canada Post eventually told me they could see in their system that my parcel had arrived at the local sorting facility (Pearson Airport, Toronto), but they couldn't even tell me what city in Pakistan it departed for (which would help me in perhaps locating the correct PK customs office), and CP's final answer was "this shipment wasn't tracked"—as I expected, really. Nobody in Pakistan ever replied, despite my repeated attempts.

A few days later, he messaged me saying that I "cheated him" because he had just bought an identical item from another Canadian eBayer and this seller had given him a tracking # and only charged him C$40 for shipping. That made no sense, given the CP options available, and the (tracked) UPS/DHL etc estimates I'd looked at that were also in the $180 (or higher) range.

I located the only other Canadian eBayer who had sold the item in the last few days and messaged him to ask if what I'd been told was true. He confirmed it was the same buyer and told me the buyer paid $88 for shipping. It turns out that CP's International-Parcel-Air(and Surface) service includes tracking service but it is 'events in Canada' tracking ONLY—there is no tracking after it leaves Canada—and certainly NO delivery confirmation. So, it appears my buyer wasted his money on more expensive shipping, and it also did the seller no benefit as he too was without Protection (despite thinking that he was Protected) and his eBay/PayPal fees will have slightly increased due to the increased Final Value amount.

I monitored both Feedback pages (seller and my buyer) to see if/when the re-bought item arrived safely in PK. Neither ever provided Feedback for the other, suggesting that parcel also did NOT arrive. My buyer has never messaged me to say that my parcel ever arrived, or that the other one did and mine didn't (which he probably would have, as he seemed to believe that I never sent anything). I wrote to both to ask what happened, and never heard back from either.

Either the buyer scammed us both, or neither parcel arrived safely, through no fault of his own. I honestly don't think he is a scammer, based on his Feedback history and corruption that I've since learned is rife in Pakistan's postal system. Then again, neither of our two "Item not received" cases show up on his record because, as I found, you can't leave Feedback when you lose a case.

I am out my item cost, my shipping cost, my shipping materials cost, my eBay fees, my PayPal fees, my profit.

Where is the advertised PayPal Seller Protection?

According to the terms, I have to provide Proof of Delivery in order to be "protected". But now that I think of it, a buyer paying for a shipping option with delivery confirmation only benefits the seller IF the item shows as "delivered" AND IF the buyer files a claim saying he never received it. Which is unlikely from someone with a good eBay track record, such as he had. If the item goes missing at any point prior to delivery, the seller has NO Protection!

In any case, why would any buyer choose to buy from a seller who insisted on using an expensive delivery-confimation shipping serivce when doing so only benefits the seller? There's no benefit to him, as was proven when eBay/PayPal required *zero* proof that he didn't receive my item and refunded him his money. So the buyer will choose to buy from a seller who (unwittingly, like me, perhaps) offers economical untracked shipping. And I think that point takes us nicely full-circle, back to my opening question.

[kernowlass]

@racefan_dan

In the event of an item not received dispute the ONLY way paypal can tell if the item was delivered or not is by the seller giving them a tracking number that proves delivery of the item to the buyer.

So tracking is for your protection and not the buyers. You do not have to send trackable but again its at your risk and not at the buyers.

If you are sending internationally and its too expensive to send trackable then you either don't send to that country OR you take the risk to not send trackable.

After all if you bought something online and did not get it, then would you not want a refund? I would.

[racefan_dan]

1. I know (now, as a result of this transaction) how it works, but my point was that it is unfair to sellers. And furthermore, that the (PayPal) "Seller Protection: Eligible" that I saw when payment was received was false as I was not eligible and was in no way protected, either on PayPal or eBay.
   
   
2. You asked: "if you bought something online and did not get it, then would you not want a refund?" and my answer to that is: From a private seller, using a national postal service and when a Proof of Mailing is included? NO, because I understand that although most shipped items arrive at their destination safely, the postal system is not perfect and that (especially when international shipping is involved) sometimes parcels do get lost/misdelivered/damaged/severely delayed; therefore I would not expect the seller to take financial responsbility for a lost package if it was ME who chose to decline insurance coverage. And what ONE THING do all shipping services (and 3rd party shipping insurance services) require for a claim? NO, not proof of delivery... they require PROOF OF MAILING. Note that as a non-bulk shipper, I could not obtain 3rd party shipping insurance to PK, as none that I found offer it to that country.
   
   As a buyer or potential buyer, I appreciate the fact that many sellers DO offer shipping options so that I can keep my to-the-door cost down. I despise other sellers who provide only 1 option, insisting that I pay for shipping an amount that may be close to, or is actually often MORE than the item's value. Again, there's no need for any eBay/PayPal buyer to pay any more than the minimum for shipping (unless it is time critical) because they already have insurance, through those services.
   
   
3. You said: "If... its too expensive to send trackable then you either don't send to that country OR you take the risk to not send trackable." -- I'll flip that around again and say "Why should I be the one taking the risk?" and "Too expensive? That's should be for the BUYER to decide, not me". Yes, I provided options to my buyers rather than give them one take-it-or-leave-it shipping price (delivery confirmation included) but again, I was —and the vast majority of Cdn sellers are— unlikely to sell much internationally if I(/we) insist on it. If we did, eBay/PayPal would be the losers, due to a sharp decline in transactions. In the meantime, they both win, because they take their cut on the higher shipping charge.
   
   
4. You said: "In the event of an item not received dispute..." and then rationalized the need for proof of delivery (because that's what eBay/PayPal have decided to put in their terms). But look, even if I had insisted my buyer pay for delivery confirmation service, I WOULD NOT be covered if a corrupt postal worker or customs officer in Pakistan (or here in Canada, or anywhere in between) stole the parcel. Why? Because the parcel would never show as delivered! So... why did I just make the buyer spend all that extra money? Answer: to protect myself against him receiving it and claiming he didn't—and *not* because it might actually get lost in transit, which is what—I can assure you—HE thinks he's paying for. No buyer with a right mind will ever agree to pay double, triple the postage "to protect the seller"!

I just realized something: had I made my PK buyer pay for CP's $177 d.c. shipping, if the parcel was legitimately lost/stolen/delayed (and therefore I'd never get a "Delivered" status update), when eBay/PayPal refunded him via funds in my account, that would have been an EXTRA $150 that I'd have been out of pocket!! Remember: the refund is taken back in full, even though the cost of shipping has been paid/permanently forfeited to the shipping service.

Bottom line: if eBay/PayPal want to give buyers guarantees, that should be on them, not the seller. Or else, if given shipping options, put the responsibility on the buyer to decide what protection he is prepared to pay for.

[kernowlass]

@racefan_dan

1. Paypal state the ''transaction'' is eligable for seller protection. But its up to you make sure you meet all the criteria for that.

eg when a buyer ''pays'' then as long as they have a confirmed address etc then paypal will say the transaction is eligable BUT if you don't send the item trackable then you lose that eligability.

2. The seller agreed to paypal terms when they opened their paypal account by agreeing to the user agreement. If they did not want to do so then they should not accept payments via a paypal account. Those paypal terms state ''seller must prove delivery of the item to the buyer''.

You don't want to do that then don't accept paypal but you will lose a lot of customers as buyers use paypal BECAUSE they have that protection.

3. Same answer as above really. You should be responsible because you AGREED to be responsible when you opened your paypal account.

4. There are always going to be times when items get lost in the post or even stolen. That is why you need to risk assess your own transactions and decide if you want to go ahead or not. You don't see shopkeepers closing up shop the minute they get 1 shoplifter, no they are aware they are going to be ripped off sometimes and risk assess how they do their business.

Nothing is ever going to be 100% perfect, if you want it to be so then I suggest you just sell at car boot fairs.....LOL

Bottom line: if you don't want to take the risks when you sell items of having to refund the odd buyer then stop accepting paypal for your payments.

HOWEVER if you accepted credit cards you would be in the same boat, if a buyer paid you with a c.c. and did not get their item then they would chargeback and you would not be able to argue it with the c.c. company.

[racefan_dan]

^ You're telling me again how it is. I know how it is, I'm complaining about how it is. And explaining why it sucks.

Responding to your numbered points:

1. The "You received a payment" email is received, naturally, after payment has been made. Eligible in the English language means "available, having met specified conditions". If it had said "Seller Protection: Available", that would have a distinctly different connotation — in fact, it'd be exactly what you've just told me.
   
   If it had said "Seller Protection: Eligible*" with an asterisked explanation below saying "Provided a shipping service with delivery confirmation is used", that would also be acceptable.
   
   Wondering what it would take to receive a ":NOT eligible" status, I looked it up and noticed that "Items that you deliver (or are picked up) in person" is one example of a transaction NOT eligible for SP. That suggests that delivery method IS taken into consideration prior to the issuance of the email/Eligibility status. As such, the post-payment "Eligible" boast deceives/lulls the seller into believing they are protected by PayPal even when they may not be.
   
   As a relevant aside: With my PK sale, despite my seller's PayPal address being "CONFIRMED", I noticed the provided postal code was: "00000", which surely wasn't correct. I looked up the correct code for his street address online and then asked him to confirm that "00000" was correct; he provided me the same one I found. I called PayPal to ask them about this, given that I was concerned that me making the change would violate the conditions required for Seller Protection. They couldn't explain why he was CONFIRMED with an invalid postal code, but did say that if I had sent to "00000" and the parcel didn't arrive, I would be protected PROVIDED THAT I could prove proof that the postal code was invalid. (In retrospect, I wish I'd left it as it appeared and takne my chances that it would have got there regardless!) Incidentally, I later asked that 2nd Cdn seller he bought from what postal code he shipped to, and thankfully it had by then been updated with the correct info. My point: again, ": Eligible" is just words, it doesn't reflect actual conditions, so it's a misuse of the word.
   
   
2. See previous posts: Yes, that's PayPal's terms but it is inconsistent with the requirement of every other shipping service or 3rd party shipping insurance provider. I keep repeating the point but PayPal's "Protection" doesn't protect the seller in case of legit lost in transit. So the best option for a Canadian seller is to ignore PP's boast (as that requires $$$$$ d.c.) and to instead combine the most economical CP shipping service available AND purchase 3rd party shipping insurance for the full shipment value (cost: approx US$4). That's far cheaper than upgrading to a CP insured service (careful: some only have max $100 limit). In my case, sending to PK, if I'd been able to convince the buyer to shell out C$75 for ins. shipping ($89 now, since Jan's rate increase), I would have been protected against any loss. Unfortunately, eBay's shipping tool does not allow such level of fine-tuning, so insisting on that service would have cost me other sales.
   
   
3. (#4) You are talking about businesses. I was going to make the same point as you in a previous post, but didn't feel it was relevant as I stated at the top that I am not a business. Okay, I was reselling multiple brand new items, but the point is it was made clear I am not a high volume seller. This financial loss to this PK seller really hurt. And again, I understand (and understood) the risk, but my complaint is that it's not right that eBay+PayPal put all the risk on the seller, when it's so easy to give the buyer shipping options and let them assume the risk.
   
   
4. (#5) Stop using PayPal AND EBAY, I think you meant! Neither has my back as a seller, despite what they claim. I will continue to use them (in conjunction with 3rd party shipping insurance and more careful consideration of where I'll ship to), but I would like their system to change. And for that to happen, people first have to admit that the system needs changing. Some of us already know it. I was hoping this thread would help others to understand that everything is not great.