Refund including shipping cost

[emmr]

 I recently purchased a label printer for $450 paid from my PayPal account. I provided the seller with my DHL account and I paid an additional $217 for international shipping. I received the printer and discovered it was not as dscribed, was supposed to be with an LCD touch panel and receive an icon display instead, an inferior type and not suitable for my use.
The seller agreed it was his mistake but he isisted to cnvince me to try and sell it on ebay or craiglist. He refused to pay for return shipping not to mention the original shipping cost.
I opened a dispute on PayPal, meanwhile the seller published the printer on ebay and sold it. Only after 2 weeks he posted a reply to the dispute with instructions to ship the printer to France - the seller is from US and the printer was shipped from US. He requested the shipping to be made using a FedEx account that probably belongs to the new buyer.
PayPal automatically switched the dispute to claim an I received instructions to return the printer for a refund of the purchasing sum, not including the $217 original shipping.

I managed to add the DHL invoice for the shipping, but I am not sure this will be reviewed properly, as the only document I am supposed to send is the tracking number.
From my point of view, receiving something completely different from whatever was ordered should not cause me any losses, this is logical. Practically I claimed refund for the purchase and shipping. If the seller wants it back I think it should ship to the seller and not to another buyer. FedEx is asking for my details and if for some reason the new buyer won't accept to pay or receive it they are charging me, not to mention custom taxes and etc.
Needless to mention that my claim is not for all the other fees I paid, custom release, import taxes and even Visa international transaction fee of almost 2.5%. Not to mention the time spent on correspondence.
I only want to minimize my loss, but PayPal rushes to easy solutions and there is no way to explain things, the system is very tight.
What can I do? 

[lancelotme]

Did you buy the printer on Ebay?

[lancelotme]

I see why you did not get your DHL shipping cost back from Paypal,because it is not part of the original paypal payment,your paypal payment is for the printer only ,so Paypal would only refund printer cost after you return with tracking to the seller in US. 

There is no way you can recover the DHL shipping cost,and other fees from seller .

But this seller has sold it on Ebay to a buyer in France while it is still in your possession and she wants you to ship the printer to France using Fed eXP.

NOW here is your dilema,to get your printer payment back from PAYPAL,you must return the printer back to the seller in US with tracking,when tracking show it has been delivered to her,you will get the money $460?

right now PAYPAL is holding the $460,not the seller nor you,and waiting !

Seller is not in good shape either,as she has sold it to a French buyer,she is obliged to ship and she is expecting you to ship it for her,if you do not ship,her buyer will file dispute with PAYPAL. or Ebay.

You will have to work with your seller,she will send you your printer money $460 and you will close the case on Paypal indicating you no longer need Paypal to resolve the case ,by doing so,Paypal will release the $460 and it will go back to her.

then if she wants you to ship to France,she has  to give you the Fed EXP account number and instruction so you dont have to pay out of your pocket,in fact you can even charge her something for being her shipper.

Or you can just return the item back to her,with tracking and then have her do whatever she likes,none of your concern anymore.

It is up to you,return the printer would cost you more money,so I would tell her to refund you $460 for the printer and you will close the case,so she can get the 460 back from PAYPAL .

then the next step is to ship to France,if you can get her to refund the 460 and you close the case,you are in a good bargaining position,yu can tell her it has cost you a lot of money DHL,TAX,etc and you are not her slave,and ask her to reimburse some of that cost before you ship to France.

It all depends on how much money she is making with the French deal.

what a mess !

go to PAYPAL NOW and see if it is possible to close the case while Paypal is waiting for you to return the item.

if yes,

then tell the seller to refund you first and then you close the case.

[DPCreations]

Unfortunately, the shipping fee you paid on your own and separate from PayPal cannot be included in any PayPal settlement.  Furthermore, when there is a buer dispute and PayPal decides in favor of the buyer, it is PayPal policy that the buyer pays for return shipping, inlcuding tracking and, sometimes, signature required.

It is just part of the risks of using PayPal for international purchase.

It is important you become familier with PayPal policies for buyer protection and all related fees before you make any more purchases.

Your first mistake was the make the purchase wihout knowing enough about the seller and seller reputation.

Your second miskake was to pay your own shipping cost.

[lancelotme]

Ask the seller whose idea is it to ship Fed Exp to France,does the buyer have an account with Fed Exp?

if the buyer has an account,then all the fees would be billed to her account,if she does not have an account,then the seller would have to pay you for shipping to France after you find out from FED eXP how much ?

  But first is to tell the seller to refund your $450,then you will close the case,seller should agree since the money is with PAYPAL ,it does neither of you any good.

[lancelotme]

when Paypal ask you to return the item,there is a deadline ,if past the deadline and no tracking has been updated and shown delivered,the case will close and money will be released to the seller,Paypal figure you must like the printer and decide to keep it,so the seller would get to keep the money.

so contact the seller now,since the French buyer has paid her,she has enough money to send you $450,then when you close the case,she will get her 450 back from PAYPAL,she lost nothing ,the key here is trust,can she trust you to close the case?

She needs you to ship to France,she does not have much of a choice not to trust you   

[emmr]

Well, thank you all for the replies.

It is indeed a lesson I learned, I understand the point about the shipping not included in the PayPal's claim as it was not paid through them. This is a plain story about how whatever you try to make cheap turns out to be expensive eventually.

DHL and also the others, UPS or FedEx have a weird policy:
If you import collect, meaning I pay the shipping to the seller and he pays the currier, their local branch will charge between $80-110 for custom clearance fees. If I import on my account only $10-15.

Some sellers also demand unreasonable shipping costs, probably make part of the profit from shipping. This is the reason I am using my account, who thinks about the refund from the beginning, after all we can't suspect every seller or think every transaction will go wrong - aren't we trying to "think positive"?

But I do believe PayPal has enugh influence specially on business account owners to (at least) recommend the seller to make a full refund including shipping, even if it was not part of the transaction.

The other part is the way things are supposed to be done - when I purchased the printer I FIRST paid the seller and only then he shipped it. Now I need to trust the seller and the system and first ship, pray everything goes well and his new buyer is happy and then I get the refund. What worries me is that the seller published the printer on ebay as "new, in unopened box" while this is not the situation, I had to open the box and discover it was the wrong type. What if the new buyer will argue about this?
If the shipping was a small sum I could skip this part, but $217 which is about 40% of the product's cost is not small change.
Anyway... I guess we always learn something new

[DPCreations]

I think you're  correct, trying to go cheap is often the more expenive route, yet many buyers have the emotional reaction to low cost and experienced sellers can take advantage of that.

It is also important to consider the risk of international purchases.  Bargain prices for electronics are extremely high risk.  Those items are best purchases from reputable major sellers.

PayPal does not provide business management advice or education, so each buyer needs to evaluate each situation and learn the importantance self-education before making major purchases.

As for your current situation, you are in a lose-lose situation and the risk of loss can go higher.  If you have a perfectly fucntional printer but not what you expected, your best option may be to just accept your current situation.

Shipping to the other buyer is extremely high risk and you have not financial protecton from anyone.  Your seller is under no obligation to refund money.  The new buyer can claim non-receipt to the seller and get a  refund.  End result:  New buyer gets your printer AND refund from seller.  You do not get your money and you have no printer.  Seller wins kept your money and refunded the second purchase money it to new buyer.

Base your decision on realisitic outcomes and then select the lowest risk for YOURSELF.

[lancelotme]

I disagree,if the French buyer files complaint for whatever reason,the problem is with her seller .

The buyer would file dispute either with Ebay or Paypal,look up the transaction,OP name and email address is not on the transaction.

Her name and address may be on the Fed EXP shipping label and if for some reason,it cannot be delivered,it will come back to her .

It is really up to you,keep the printer or try to sell it yourself or get seller to give you 450 via friend and family and then ship the printer to France.

if the french buyer does not like the printer,let the seller deal with it,you wil be out of the picture. 

[lancelotme]

Shipping to the other buyer is extremely high risk and you have not financial protecton from anyone.  Your seller is under no obligation to refund money.  The new buyer can claim non-receipt to the seller and get a  refund.  End result:  New buyer gets your printer AND refund from seller.  You do not get your money and you have no printer.  Seller wins kept your money and refunded the second purchase money it to new buyer.

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she has to ask the seller to send her 450 via friend and family,then she closed the Paypal case and Paypal will release the hold on the original 450 to the seller .

Then seller will give her instruction to ship to France,using the french buyer Fed EXP account,all she loses is her time and a trip to Fed Exp,her name and address could be on the Fed EXP LABEL,s for some reason it cannot be delivered,it would come back to her,

if French buyer is not happy wth the printer,he will file dispute on Ebay or Paypal,it would be against the seller,not the shipper,the French buyer does not know her,to file  a case,it has to reference the ebay listing or the PAYPAL transaction ,nowhere is her name or Paypal account on these listings.

Do it now,go ask the seller for the 450,tell her tos end it via freinds and family else Paypal will take 30 cents and 2.9%-3.9% from 450 as if your seller bought something from you