hey guys, sorry for the delay in getting back to you in here... I've been travelling and I'm only now catching up. grangeranger posted: "...some how there must be a way to form rules that are logical for a particular size seller. I am not Buy.com and do not want to be." I think this is definitely true. To an extent, PayPal and eBay already do that -- small sellers are not held to the same standard as the really big guys. There's no expectation that every seller, no matter how small, should pay for return shipping, have 1-800 24hr service, etc. -- but I think the onus is even more on the small sellers to prove they're trustworthy. Everyone knows where buy.com is, they're not going anywhere, so they have a clear reputation (though it may be good or bad, depending on your perspective.) Small sellers can disappear, they can play games, they can defraud people... so in that sense, small sellers may have to work even harder to build trust. grangeranger also posted: "One very simple and reasonable item is that if a seller is new and the have confirmed the info such as proof of banking or credit to back up actions, once they have verified who they are there should be NO need to hold funds." sharkboy42003 agrees, writing: "I despise holds . I don't like the feeling that I can't have the money I rightfully want/have/need/earned when my items sold...Too much safety...My opinion." I think PayPal is doing the right thing with these holds, though we are still working out the kinks of who gets them and when. Proof of banking or credit is not enough to know a seller will take care of their buyers. Amazon holds all payments for new sellers, regardless of how much information they share. I think eBay is moving in that direction. PayPal can be more targeted with holds because we know so much more about the seller's financial history. I understand the pain associated with this policy, but it is one of the most important ways we can hold sellers accountable and ensure buyers are not victimized. As surplusdealdude puts it, "Would you rather buy something expensive and have the seller and your money disappear? That's the other side of the coin." Exactly, I couldn't have put it better. surplusdealdude, you mentioned that there's a glitch delaying the posting of payments on PayPal -- is that still going on? camani posted: "I know (now) what it says in the user agreement, but as I went through the dispute process (as a buyer), the site never said clearly that paypal would not help resolve a SNAD item." Thanks for this feedback... I agree, the way it works can be a rude awakening to a buyer if they presume they get the same coverage on and off eBay. We should communicate SNAD coverage more clearly outside of the user agreement. The good news is that PayPal is launching SNAD protection off-eBay, starting first in the UK, and hopefully spreading around the world in the near future, so that should solve this issue. sandypurins wrote: "1) When PayPal confirms that a seller has satisfied all Seller Protection Policy requirements, PayPal should immediately release the held funds back to the seller. Whether PayPal wins the chargeback should not be an issue when it's clear that the seller has satisfied all requirements of PayPal's seller protection policy." I agree with this. If you know the seller is going to be covered, shouldn't the process for the seller stop right there? This is something we're actively discussing based on some recent feedback we've received. "2) The lifetime unverified sending limit is a source of frustration for some (many?) buyers... especially those buyers who have been excellent, upstanding PayPal members for many years. If there is some type of government requirement which requires PayPal to obtain the buyer's bank account information or which requires the buyer to qualify for PayPal credit, it would be helpful if those details were available on PayPal's website." I can look into the government requirements. PayPal is fundamentally about bank funded payments -- credit cards are accepted as a convenience to users, but the business model is about bank funded. So I can understand why PayPal is heavy handed about this at some point. I don't know about the legalities of all of it. I bet PayMate and WePay will eventually work in a similar fashion, presuming they survive long enough to get to that point. "3) Another issue I often see on the eBay PayPal Discussion board concerns non-eBay PayPal payments. PayPal defaults the funding source to "not fully protected" methods such as PayPal balance and bank account, and PayPal attempts to discourage buyers from changing the funding source to credit card (which provides excellent buyer protection via chargeback rights), and then... PayPal provides only the Buyer Complaint Policy, where recovery is not guaranteed and is limited only to the amounts that PayPal can recover from the seller’s account. As you can imagine, this type of experience leads PayPal members to conclude that PayPal is not really interested in buyer protection." Yes, I can imagine that's the message that's received by the buyer. And that's why PayPal is working hard to expand buyer protection to better match that of credit cards. Truth be told, the vast majority of buyers are fully covered for INRs under the buyer complaint process, because almost all of our off-eBay merchants carry enough of a balance to pay all those claims off. SNAD issues are more complex because we can only see the original listing for eBay items -- how can you tell if an item was not-as-described if you can't see how it was originally described? The seller could list a Ferrari and deliver a Yugo and by the time we hear about it they've changed the listing on their site to say Yugo. It's a complex prospect. But we're working hard to figure out how to make it work. Thanks for the good feedback, Sandy! Stabier wrote: "Lets see, a buyer bought my item, I sent it, then they claimed the transaction was unauthorized.. guess what? Paypal gave them the money back with no evidence supporting the claim, closed the dispute and I am stuck with out the money or the item, now thats their form of customer service, err customer abuse I mean." Stabier, you are protected from unauth liability if you can prove you shipped the item to the buyer's address. Was it an eBay item or a non-eBay item? As surplusdealdude explains, "Paypal always gives you the opportunity to present your side of the story, so they can present it to the credit card company, who are the ones making the decision in this instance." Look into our seller protection policies... they're the most generous in the industry, in my opinion, and they're not that hard to qualify for. Just keep your shipping receipts and get delivery confirmation, and don't ship items to addresses that aren't in the system. And on this sentiment: "Pointless thread, Paypal just dont care like they use too. - Thats my feedback! Just another greedy big US company, looking to cream as much money as they can from sellers. I have been a user since 2002 of ebay/Paypal." Thanks for being such a long time user. It's true that PayPal is getting bigger. But I promise you we spend a lot of time and energy listening to customers, fixing pain points, and trying to do the right thing. Yes, this is a business, and we need to make money. But I've seen many, many instances where PayPal has left big potential profits on the table because they wanted to invest in user satisfaction and loyalty. In the financial services/payments industry it's not hard to come up with ways to take advantage of your customers... think about the card issuers and banks processing big payments before little ones, so they can hit you with more overdraft fees when you go over... PayPal doesn't do that stuff. But when you're put into the role of marketplace administrator you can't be everyone's friend... sometimes you have to make the hard call. Surplusdealdude has it right: the key thing is to know the rules, then you can protect yourself. What people need when they use PayPal is predictability. I think PayPal's done a very good job providing that. Thanks for the comments, y'all -- keep 'em coming... Colin
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