Using gift option to receive payment or pay for for goods. Fradulent?

[MrCurious]

I had a heated discussion with certain individuals about this topic, and I am hoping that by creating this post I can finally put this whole thing to rest. I have no problem admitting I am wrong, when presented with indesputable evidence.

I ask, that when replying to my topic, that you PLEASE keep your personal feelings, views and emotions about this issue at bay, and do your best to remain non biased and impartial. The reason for this is that I noticed that discussions about right and wrong stir people up a bit too much, and personal feelings get in the way of a productiove discussion. With that out of the way, lets get to the topic at hand.

Please bear with me because this will be a long post.

Lately I took interest in this topic, and after a quick google search, I found a very large amount of posts on random forums all over the internet FOR and AGAINST use of "gift" option to avoid paypal fees. There is also a very large amout of you-tube videos advocating such a practice.

It so happened, that I decided to partake in a discussion on this very same topic on one of the internet forums.  I mentioned that I do not see anything fradulent about such activity in itself. I also noticed that a lot of people called this practice very unsafe, so I added that one can avoid or minimize the risk of getting scammed online with gift payments by using common sense, doing research on the person you are dealing with, etc, etc.

The reaction to my post was an equivalent of a bomb going off. I was quickly labeled a criminal, who promotes fradulent activity, and puts other people in danger. I was told that my advice to use common sense and do research on buyers and sellers further puts people in risk, and instead of saying such things I should understand, that gifting payments for goods is simply an absolute NO NO, and to deny this, is simply uphauling. I was told that my ethics are questionable, and people should think twice about dealing with me online. (despite the fact that I made no claims that I myself, partake in such practices in my forum post) 

The moderator issued an infraction against me, saying that I am a thief and a fradulent criminal who puts others in danger with his ideas. I contacted him to resolve this issue peacefully and voice my disagreement with his tinking and his actions. I received a very rude reply and was threatened with a ban. My evidence to support my claims was called a bunch of BS.

I was told that using gift payments in such ways is equivalent to physically stealing money from paypal, because it is intened that paypal is compensated for money transferring services.

I want the reader to please try and notice the differnce between taking money out of someones pocket that was already there and preventing them from receiving this money in the first place. Not even necessarily with malicious intent !!!!

As evidence the mod quoted a part of PayPal's TOS, which states:

 Receiving  Money.  
 
 Receiving  Personal  Payments.  
 
If  you  are  selling  goods  or  services,  you  may  not  ask  the  buyer  to   send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments. 

 Definitions.  

"Personal  Payment"  means  amounts  sent  between  two  individuals  (not  to  or from a business) without a purchase. Examples of Personal Payments include sending a gift to a friend or paying a friend back for your share of a lunch bill. 

I see a lot that can be questioned and disputed in such statements. First of all, I simply dont see how paying a friend for my share of lunch is different from paying a friend for a school book he gave me or for a computer he allowed me to use. I am sure that with some thinking anyone can come up with a thousand of other examples which may or may not fit into what PayPal would deem appropriate. There is no part in this paragraph of PayPal's TOS which says "limited to...". If this was the case, I wouldnt even raise such questions.

Further, it says that I may not ask anyone to gift me payment for goods or services. But what if I was asked to do so or was offered to receive payment in this fashion? There is nothing that states that this would be illegal. This may be wrong on the part of the person soliciting me for this, but there is no wrongdoing on my part in this case. The only problem with this case is that I am putting myself in risk, but that is MY PROBLEM, and no one has the right to tell me I cannot do this.

Now the questions of fraud, criminal activity, morals and ethics...

I decided to email PayPal with all these same questions asking what their official stance on this matter is.

The reply was, and I quote: (with names removed)

"Dear X,

Thank you for contacting PayPal Customer Support. My name is X and I will be happy to assist you. Exactly as stated in the user agreement if you receive numerous personal payments we will review the account and you could lose your ability to send and receive payments. We would not pursue you or take you to court but you may not be allowed to use PayPal if choose not to follow the User agreement terms that were agreed to when signing up for your account."

This clearly shows me, that no one has any right, backed up by any law to call an idividual partaking in "gifting" payent a criminal or to label such activity as fradulent or even illegal. If this was otherwise, PayPal would have the right, or at least a desire to pursue or even sue such an individual. Last time I checked, crimes were something that results in punishment? In the letter it clearly says "NUMEROUS". According to this, sending or receiving gifts as payment for goods is not in itself criminal or wrong. Abusing PayPal's generosity, and taking advantage of the "gift" option intended to be used in non-commercial situations numerous times IS. Futher it says that one "COULD" lose the ability to use this option. This implies to me that if the offender's actions were not overly severe, PayPal might be willing to let the whole thigng go, at least if the offender promises to ceize such activity.

I see a lot of people on the internet talking about how acting agaisnt PayPal's TOS is immoral and unethical. I hope you will lexcuse me for saying that your feelings and personal beliefs on this matter are completely irrelevant and should be held back and kept to yourselves.

A lot of what is considered immoral or unethical by many people is being done every day umong us, a lot of which is much, much worse than going against PayPal's TOS, yet many such "offenders" are not called criminals and thieves.

For example, I "think" that businesspeople who buy merchandise for a cheap price and resell it for higher price are scammers in thieves, and I can give you many arguements to back up this claim, but in our society this is called normal business.

So please, tell me... Explain to me, preferrably showing proof, how can someone using "gift" payments with transactions concerning goods be labeled as a criminal and a  thief, engaging in fradulent activity, if no person among the two engaged in a trade was actually scammed or their money physically stolen? And if you think that I am completely wrong, and my evidence laughable, stupid, and comical, please scroll up and reread the letter I got back from PayPal. After this, please do a google search for PayPal's gift payments, see what you will get, notice how many people use gift payments outside of thie so called "intended" purpose, and read at least some of what they have to say.