Is there no fairness and justice?

[JosephD]

I'm livid right now.

I just encountered my first PayPal claim against me, and as no surprise (based on the comments I've read online), PP favored with the buyer and has withdrawn money from my account, putting me in the negative. I feel as if I have been robbed of what's rightfully mine.

Here's my story....

I made arrangements with a buyer (outside of eBay) to sell him two pairs of sneakers. I sent him several photos of the sneakers before he agreed to purchase them so that he could see that I did in fact have the sneakers in my possession and so that he could see what he would be purchasing. After receiving and reviewing the photos, the buyer agreed to purchase both pairs for a price in the upper 3 digits. After receiving payment, I boxed up and shipped the sneakers out to the buyer. Once he received them, he sent me a message on FB claiming that some of his friends suspect one of the two pairs are fake since they’re cleaner than what they’re used to seeing for a sneaker that’s 5 years old. At that time he requested to see Proof of Purchase, which I provided him. He thanked me for providing him with PoP and I asked him if he was satisfied, which at that time he told me he was. He went on to say that he knows the sneakers are real cause he has another pair that he purchased himself and he compared the two to determine they’re authentic and that he just wanted PoP to show the “haters”, as he put it, that question their authenticity. We chatted for a bit after that about sneakers and other random stuff and he even asked me if I would sell him a few of my other pairs, which I declined since I wasn’t interested in selling the other sneakers he was interested in buying.

A week goes by and I get another message from the buyer on FB, this time saying that he took the sneakers to two consignment shops where he was told they’re fake. Having already provided him with PoP for the sneakers, I could do nothing more than explain to him that they’re as real as they come and that I have already provided him PoP as he requested. Communication ended after a few sentences, leading me to believe that between my word, the PoP I provided him and the fact that he told me he knows they’re real, he was again satisfied, as he told me he was a week earlier.  

Another week goes by and I get yet another message from the buyer (last night actually). This time he says he took the sneakers to another shop and they too told him they’re fake and that he would like to return him. Again I explained to him that they’re real and that I’ve done everything I can to prove that and that I will not take a return, as it was clearly started in the T&C of the PayPal invoice he was provided. He informed me that he was going to file a PayPal dispute, which I replied that’s fine and reminded him that he was provided pictures of the sneakers before agreeing to buy them and that he received exactly what he saw and paid for and that he paid an invoice that clearly indicated “All sales final. There are no returns on sneakers under any circumstances”.

As expected, he filed a PayPal dispute which he instantly escalated to a claim, stating that the sneakers were not as described and they’re fake. Not as described? He received and reviewed pictures of them. He saw what he was buying with his own two eyes and agreed to buy them after that. There was very little describing I had to do besides mentioning that they’re 100% original and still brand-new.

Out of the three choices PayPal gives you, I opted to disagree with the buyers claim and provide more details since I know for a fact the sneakers are real and have the PoP to prove so. I put together an entire document in Word regarding the situation, only to find out that PayPal doesn’t allow more than 2,000 characters. My document was well over 7,000. How am I supposed to provide all the necessary details and plead my case in 2,000 characters or less? PayPal should allow an infinite amount of characters, but since they don’t, I had to cut my argument down, really, really down, leaving out plenty of details in the process. I submit the case in the resolution center and a couple hours later there’s an update saying that the buyer has been notified that I will refund him money once the sneakers are returned. Never once did I say I would expect a return. That decision was clearly made for me on behalf of PayPal, even though I clearly stated my reasons for not accepting returns. At that point I was left with no options and told to wait for the buyer to provide tracking information for the return.

Fuming, I called PayPal customer service as soon as they opened at 6am. I spoke to somebody from customer service, explaining to them the situation and how I feel as if I’m being cheated and that, in my opinion, the decision of the claim wasn’t handled properly and is unfair. I’ll admit that I yelled and raised by voice more than I should have, but I was ragging considering all the potential risks and possabilities PayPal is leaving me with by forcing me to take a return. Offering very little help, I requested to speak to a supervisor. A short while later I get a supervisor on the phone who was very nice by the way (probably helped that I calmed down and talked to her in a polite manner – even told her I’m doing all I can not to scream so that she knew I was mad but being respectful at the same time). I explained everything to her from the very beginning, from the point where the buyer and I first started communication, all the way to the point where he filed a claim. She told me that based on what I told her and the fact that I say I can provide all the documentation to prove the sneakers are real, she believes me and believes that I sent the buyer an authentic product and that the buyer is just being problematic. She didn’t go as far as calling the buyer a liar, but she did tell me straight out “I hate people that lie”. Neither here nor there, since he was filing an “item not as described” claim, I was told it’s PayPal’s policy to have the buyer return the product and refund the money. I was basically told that they do this to protect themselves – something about how it could hurt them if the buyer complains to his credit company. She called it “damage control”.

Our conversation ended when she told me that for now, the decision has been made and the buyer will be shipping me the sneakers back, and that once I receive them, to call PayPal and we’ll go from there. There was mention of possibly filing an appeal, but she wouldn’t go as far as telling how to file one since she said I can’t file one right now anyway and that I have to wait to get the returned items before going any further. She did tell me that she will be handling my case personally, which I felt good hearing. However, she doesn’t have her own extension, so getting her on the phone again could become a problem.

Now……..What I don’t understand and what really makes me mad is….well, there are a few things…

First – the buyer reviewed pictures of the sneakers and agreed to buy them after doing so. He then told me he was satisfied after I provided him with PoP and went on to say he knows they’re real. If he reviewed pictures of the sneakers and admitted to me in text (which I have screenshots of to prove) that he knows they’re real, how can he turn around 3 weeks later and file a dispute and say the item isn’t as described?

Second – I have the PoP to prove the sneakers were bought through a major retailer and that they are indeed real. I even pulled up a copy of my FB status from 2009 on the day the sneakers were released where I mentioned being lucky enough to get my hands on two pairs of the sneakers (they were extremely hard to get and sold out in seconds, so I was bragging about my luck). To my knowledge, the buyer can’t prove anybody told him the sneakers are fake, and even if he could, how does the word of some random person who’s no way at all involved in the transaction hold more weight than my word and my PoP? I told PayPal that I could provide all the documents to prove they’re real and they never requested to see the PoP or the conversations between the buyer and I, and as far as I know, they never asked the buyer to provide proof that he was told the sneakers are fake. Without reviewing the necessary documents, how can a fair and honest decision be made? If I have the PoP and screenshots of the buyer telling me himself that he knows they’re real before changing his mind a week or two later, how is it that he’s able to make a claim for “item not as described” and force me into a return?

Third – If the T&C listed in a PayPal invoice don’t hold weight, what’s the point of even having them? The reason I don’t accept returns on sneakers is not because I’m doing anything shady. I’m tied into the sneaker industry and I have a reputation to uphold. If I’m even suspected of having anything to do with fake sneakers, I would destroy my reputation and be shunned from the industry forever. It’s not a risk I’m willing to take. The reason I state no returns is because I’m worried about the shadiness and hassle that could potentially arise with taking a return. There’s nothing stopping a buyer from going out and purchasing a replica model and returning that to me instead of the real product they originally received, forcing me to prove somehow that the original item was replaced with a counterfeit item. I could potentially be left with something worthless instead of my original product that’s valued at several hundred dollars. Believe it or not, that’s not an uncommon practice when it comes to scammers in the sneaker industry. Another reason I don’t take returns is because I only sell my sneakers that I haven’t worn and that are still brand-new and there’s nothing stopping somebody from wearing them and returning them afterwards.  A sneaker that’s been unlaced, tried on and even worn just around the house isn’t worth nearly as much as a pair that’s deadstock and still factory laced. They’re not like a pair of pants or a hat that will retain its value after being tried on. I know returning something different than what you received is mail fraud and could likely result in serious punishment, but having to report somebody for mail fraud and go through the process of that unneeded headache isn’t is my interest, so I try to avoid the possibility of that happening by stating all sales final.   

Fourth – If the buyer makes a claim that the sneakers are fake and then goes on a website and posts pictures of them asking people whether or not they’re fake, clearly indicating that he doesn’t know for sure himself whether they are or not, how isn’t his claim considered fraud?  Here he is telling PayPal the sneakers aren’t as described and that they’re fake, yet after filing the claim he can be found asking people whether or not they’re fake. Is that not a false claim?

Fifth – I know without a doubt the sneakers are real and that the buyers claim is false. If everything goes as I hope and I get my original sneakers back, what would be the next course of action? Can PayPal force the buyer to keep the sneakers based on the T&C of the sale if they are indeed as described and his claim is proven to be false and a waste of both mine and PayPal’s time and resources? I know you have 3 days to issue a refund after receiving the returned items before PayPal automatically refunds the money, but I hope to get somebody on the phone before the 3 day limit, especially since I was told specifically to call PayPal as soon as I receive the sneakers.

Any advice or insight from the forum members would be helpful. Please, none of those “if you can’t afford to lose it, don’t sell it online” comments that aren’t helpful to anybody. This isn’t a matter of being able to afford to lose it or not. Nobody should be forced to lose anything on false claims, whether they can afford it or not.

[JosephD]

Any suggestions here?

[dhunter]

I'm in pretty much the same boat as you. I'm done with PayPal, they always rule in favor of the buyer. Same thing happened on eBay but they ruled in my favor because item i sold was not eligible for buyer protection thankfully. Also it's funny how paypal doesn't refund your fees in these situations, they keep their portion either way. They just look out for themselves.

[JosephD]

The 10+ years I've been using PayPal, I haven't had a problem, until now.

The ruling seems completely unfair considering the facts of my particular case and what can be proven on my part.

I hear PayPal is extending the length on which a claim can be filed from 40 days to 180. That's insane. So somebody can buy an item and claim it wasn't as described 6 months later? Nobody offers a return lke that. Not even brick and mortar retailers, and even if they did, I'm not a brick and mortar retailer and somebody shouldn't expect the same type of exchange/return policy they get when buying an item from a major retailer.