Seller Protection vs. Cost (dispute for an item not received)

[jth240]

I've been selling on ebay for several years as a hobby and I am in my first "dispute" over an item not received.  I've looked at the forums on "seller protection" but I don't necessarily see it.  I normally send out my won items the following day, or a second day at the latest, because I have a po box and go check my mail frequently so it's not an extra trip.  Most of my feedback all says "super-fast shipping" or something along those lines.  

I recently sold an item and shipped it the next day and have a receipt from the post office that shows the city/state/zip of the recipient.  When I read the protection terms, however, it says proof of delivery is the type you pay additional for.    Keep in mind this is a hobby, not a business i'm running, so I try my best to give people good rates and make sure i'm available.  I'm in the middle of this dispute and trying to figure out who paypal is going to side with.

Is it the seller's responsibilty to automatically pay the additional cost of insurance or delivery confirmation when a buyer does not?  Everything i'm reading is saying you have to have a tracking # to show proof of shipment.  Does someone actually think that I would sell something to somebody else in the same city/state at the exact same time I'm supposed to send an item to a buyer?  Why is this receipt not good enough as proof of shipment?  I also sell a lot of cd's/dvd's which can cost almost the maximum amount that ebay allows ($3.00) for shipping or purchasing packaging/tape to ship them in.  Am I supposed to also fork over .80 to protect the buyer?  I'm not complaining about any other legitimate fees from ebay or paypal....but how is this protection for a seller?  In essence here's what happens:  I purchase item for $50...sell item for $25....(-25.00....but I understand this)....now I'm going to have $28.00 (price + shipping) taken out of my account because he paid with paypal and didn't pay for del. confirmation.  So, i'm out $53.00 total and do not have the item anymore to show for it?  How is this protection?

[mystified]

I feel for you!  I purchased an item that was fake instead of genuine.  After satisfying PayPal that it was not as described and being told to send it back.  I went to the post office and showed the return requirements for my package to the clerk. I told her that I needed delivery confirmation and she told me the seller would have to sign for it it  and it would be available online. Long story short, she gave me the wrong type of shipping and information.  PayPal won't accept the USPO copy of the sellers' signature and delivery documents as proof of delivery! I'm out of over $3000. !!!  The USPO is going after the seller (and possibly PayPal as an accessory) to mail fraud. Paypal required an appraisal on the item to prove it was fake, and agreed to refund my money because it was fake.  Then, because they wouldn't accept the proof of delivery, supposidly sent my money to the seller anyway instead of contacting the USPO first. Had they contacted  the USPO, the money would have been returned to me via the USPO or PayPal by law.

They will side with the thief. They do in most all cases. How pathetic is that?  This is the only place where it pays to be dishonest. Legally or not...that is the question???

[profdata]

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@mystified wrote:

I feel for you!  I purchased an item that was fake instead of genuine.  After satisfying PayPal that it was not as described and being told to send it back.  I went to the post office and showed the return requirements for my package to the clerk. I told her that I needed delivery confirmation and she told me the seller would have to sign for it it  and it would be available online. Long story short, she gave me the wrong type of shipping and information.  PayPal won't accept the USPO copy of the sellers' signature and delivery documents as proof of delivery! I'm out of over $3000. !!!  The USPO is going after the seller (and possibly PayPal as an accessory) to mail fraud. Paypal required an appraisal on the item to prove it was fake, and agreed to refund my money because it was fake.  Then, because they wouldn't accept the proof of delivery, supposidly sent my money to the seller anyway instead of contacting the USPO first. Had they contacted  the USPO, the money would have been returned to me via the USPO or PayPal by law.

They will side with the thief. They do in most all cases. How pathetic is that?  This is the only place where it pays to be dishonest. Legally or not...that is the question???

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Yes you need online viewable proof of delivery.

if you funded the paypal payment with a credit card contac  the cc company and file a chargeback.  the cc company will take the proof you got from the post office.

[mystified]

PayPals' online proof of delivery only policy is CRAP, and we suspect illegal! People can make mistakes and computers can fail...does that give them a reason to steal and at any price??? The credit card company should not have to get involved! Right is right and wrong is wrong!!! The court system requires actual documents as proof of delivery in any and all disputes of this kind!  Don't take up for a policy everyone knows is theft at best!  PayPal had better pay attention and start reporting these mail fraud cases!   And it's not just with the mail...any shipping method you care to name.  If Paypal doesn't think enough of their honest customers' to try to protect their intrests...what good are they as a company???  Alot of sellers and buyers alike think it's because they are just too big and just don't care!  How sad is that? I bet the criminals are loving it though...what a place to hide behind!

[profdata]

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@mystified wrote:

PayPals' online proof of delivery only policy is CRAP, and we suspect illegal! People can make mistakes and computers can fail...does that give them a reason to steal and at any price??? The credit card company should not have to get involved! Right is right and wrong is wrong!!! The court system requires actual documents as proof of delivery in any and all disputes of this kind!  Don't take up for a policy everyone knows is theft at best!  PayPal had better pay attention and start reporting these mail fraud cases!   And it's not just with the mail...any shipping method you care to name.  If Paypal doesn't think enough of their honest customers' to try to protect their intrests...what good are they as a company???  Alot of sellers and buyers alike think it's because they are just too big and just don't care!  How sad is that? I bet the criminals are loving it though...what a place to hide behind!

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And postal receipts can be made on  a computer.  What e-mail fraud case you have no proof of delivery

[profdata]

The paypal user agreement spells out what is need, on top of that paypal tells you waht is need for a return.

Your gripe is with the USPS, they should have know that what they sold you was on viewable on-line.

Oh, just to let you know that Paypal/Ebay and the USPS "partnered" up for the shipping of ebay/paypal paid items.

Let me guess they told you the insurance will have a signature

[mystified]

Yes they did tell me it would have to be signed for.  That was in my first post, as well as the fact I showed them the sheet from PayPal with the return requirements.  Maybe the clerk was new and hadn't memorized all there was to know yet.  I don't know. BUT THAT STILL DOESN'T GIVE PAYPAL THE RIGHT TO STEAL BY REFUSING TO ACCEPT LEGITIMATE DELIVERY CONFIRMATION!!!

No, my gripe is not with the USPO, they are a huge company, employees can and will make mistakes. Their mistake didn't steal my money...their job was to deliver my package and document it's delivery.  They did that. PayPal is the one who is in the wrong here. From what I can tell, they've stolen or helped to steal a lot of money this way!

Oh and congratulations on partnering with the USPO on shipping. I bet there will be some rules changing P.D.Q.!

[mystified]

My proof of delivery was two fold.  First I went to the local post office and had them print out copies of the delivery documents.  They also keep the hard copies of all signatures etc. should they be required. That wasn't enough for PayPal.  Secondly, the Department of Consumer affairs sent all of the documents with a letter of explaination to PayPal along with names and phone numbers of officials to contact with any questions.  That still wasn't enough.  The USPO legal department says this is more than sufficient to provide proof of delivery in ANY state or court!

As for postal receipts being made on computer, that computer can't testify in court that it made the delivery and obtained a signature when delivered can it???  The postman can!

   There was no reference to an email fraud case. I was talking MAIL FRAUD!  Plain and simple.

[profdata]

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@jth240 wrote:

I've been selling on ebay for several years as a hobby and I am in my first "dispute" over an item not received.  I've looked at the forums on "seller protection" but I don't necessarily see it.  I normally send out my won items the following day, or a second day at the latest, because I have a po box and go check my mail frequently so it's not an extra trip.  Most of my feedback all says "super-fast shipping" or something along those lines.  

I recently sold an item and shipped it the next day and have a receipt from the post office that shows the city/state/zip of the recipient.  When I read the protection terms, however, it says proof of delivery is the type you pay additional for.    Keep in mind this is a hobby, not a business i'm running, so I try my best to give people good rates and make sure i'm available.  I'm in the middle of this dispute and trying to figure out who paypal is going to side with.

Is it the seller's responsibilty to automatically pay the additional cost of insurance or delivery confirmation when a buyer does not?  Everything i'm reading is saying you have to have a tracking # to show proof of shipment.  Does someone actually think that I would sell something to somebody else in the same city/state at the exact same time I'm supposed to send an item to a buyer?  Why is this receipt not good enough as proof of shipment?  I also sell a lot of cd's/dvd's which can cost almost the maximum amount that ebay allows ($3.00) for shipping or purchasing packaging/tape to ship them in.  Am I supposed to also fork over .80 to protect the buyer?  I'm not complaining about any other legitimate fees from ebay or paypal....but how is this protection for a seller?  In essence here's what happens:  I purchase item for $50...sell item for $25....(-25.00....but I understand this)....now I'm going to have $28.00 (price + shipping) taken out of my account because he paid with paypal and didn't pay for del. confirmation.  So, i'm out $53.00 total and do not have the item anymore to show for it?  How is this protection?

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If you use ebay/paypal shipping D/C is free with Priority mail and only 19 cents with parcel post, 1st class parcel and media mail.  Just build the 19 cents into the S/H cost.

Also insurance protects the seller not the buyer. 

You can include the insurance cost in the S/H cost.  , but it can not be a seperate cost/charge to the buyer.

ie... S/H/I  

[calglobe]

I just finished the exact same scenario with PayPal siding with the buyer who incidentally RECEIVED the item a day later.

I also sell hobby crafts of mine on eBay, offer $5 dollar shipping to make the cost as low as possible, but it appears that every single transaction in my 4 year history with PayPal could be disputed and won by the buyer. I understand the whole "costumer is always right" theory but let's give some credit to the seller. I shipped it, have proof from the post office, I have to make sure it get's there as well? Hand deliver it maybe? There are so many other factors involved from the time I leave it at the post office to the time it gets in the hands of the buyer, why am I responsible for everything?

The buyer was upset since it took two months to deliver something oversees that should have taken 10 business days. I agree that this was not acceptable. I provided proof of shipment yet that's not enough and money was refunded. Exactly a day later I received an e-mail from the buyer that he just now received the package. So now I am out the money and the item which I know was received. The buyer claims that he contacted PayPal about this, and will send me the funds if PayPal doesn't do anything with that, but who's to say he will follow thru on this? Why would he, he's already got the item in hand, will he be honest enough to pay me?

I'm very disappointed with PayPal and how it assumes the seller is always wrong.