Does Paypal cover up criminals? It really looks so...

[timbo649]

I bought some clothing from the online store. Photos were good, price was not cheat. Website looked OK and it worked with Paypal, so I decided to buy there. I got **bleep**-quality counterfeit knock-off items with very little similarities to photos and description on the website. I started the dispute on Paypal and asked for a full refund. Paypal confirmed a full refund but asked me to send those items back at my expense. 

Why should I be punished by bearing shipping back cost? That was not the case when I changed my mind on the purchase, selected wrong colour or size. The seller is a fraud. They show good products on the photo and then send counterfeit rubbish. 

I believe these items should be destroyed. By asking to send them back Paypal [1] punishes a buyer that did nothing wrong; [2] encourages criminal activities of the seller as the same items will be sent to someone else. 

[kernowlass]

@timbo649 

Paypal buyer protection can never be a 100% coverall, so in the event of a dispute you need to bear in mind possible return trackable costs before you buy from that seller / item / country.

Paypal state this >>
PayPal is not obliged to reimburse you for any costs that you incur to comply with any of PayPal’s requests for cooperation for the purpose of resolving the problem (including, without limitation, costs that you incur to return a SNAD item to the Payment Recipient or another party as PayPal requests), although sometimes it may reimburse these costs.

Although they will compensate you for some of the cost if you have activated this at some point before you made that transaction .....
https://www.paypal.com/au/webapps/mpp/returns

You also have the option to do a chargeback via your card issuer instead of a Paypal dispute if you funded your Paypal payment via a credit card.

[timbo649]

Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, you missed the most important detail - criminal nature of the seller's behaviour. They show one product (a good one!) on the photo and then send you a low quality counterfeit copy. And Paypal covers up and encourages this behaviour.

Despite punishing buyers (who did nothing wrong) and endorsing fraudsters, there policy has one more consequence. Paypal destroys the future of small sellers. There are a lot of good honest sellers. I used to think that if they use Paypal, then I'm protected and I can give them a go. Not any more. It is difficult for a common buyer to see if a seller legitimate or not. So, it is better not to risk.

I will not stop using Paypal, it is almost impossible nowadays. But I will use it only for a small number of large businesses I know very well. For everything else, I will go on Amazon or Aliexpress marketpalce, where my transactions are protected by Amazon/Alibaba. 

Sorry small traders, Paypal just killed your business. 

[kernowlass]

@timbo649 

paypal just provides you with 'some' buyer protection, they don't vet sellers and its up to you to risk assess your own transactions bearing in mind the coverage paypal offer.

if paypal get lots of disputes filed against a seller then yes they may take action but we don't know how many disputes there have been. If there were thousands posted complaining but millions of processed paypal transactions done via paypal with that company then they are making paypal money and they will continue to use them won't they?

Personally I never buy from social media as its normally Chinese tat. Also i check out websites first, if no contact number or address, only webmail contact then that is normally a company to avoid.

[timbo649]

@kernowlass 

Thank you for sharing your experience. You are smart. And I am stupid. However, neither of these two facts cancels the fact that Paypal policy encourages criminal activity, unjustly punishes buyers and undermines legitimate traders' businesses. Supporting fraud is a crime. Anyone advocating rather than fighting this policy becomes co-participant of this crime.

[kernowlass]

@timbo649 

So if you pay a company via a bank payment then your bank are supporting fraud if the transaction goes wrong are they?

Paypal are not supporting fraud they are a business and processing the payments that YOU request them to make.

If YOU make a mistake with the seller you purchase from and paypal can't 'bail you out' then thats unfortunate but does not make paypal responsible for your mistake.

[timbo649]

@kernowlass 

Just for your information and irrelevant to this case: the largest Australian Bank (CBA) recently was fined for $700mln for not having proper procedures to prevent potential fraud. So, yes - banks are liable for not preventing fraud.

In this case, Paypal is directly supporting fraud. Returning counterfeit products back to seller is a support for a fraud as it encourages fraudsters to use these products again. Sending back counterfeit products is a financial support for fraudsters - Paypal protects their financial operations, prevents their losses.  And along the line, Paypal punishes buyers and destroying future of legitimate traders. 

[kernowlass]

@timbo649 

Paypal is not a BANK.

So no they are not responsible for the payments you request them to make.

They give you 'some' buyer protection and the rest is up to you.

And yes its against the law in some countries to sell fake goods but as most of these fake goods come from China WHERE IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO SELL FAKE GOODS then the seller can request those goods back again.

[timbo649]

@kernowlass 

You raised the question about banks. That was irrelevant for the topic but you put it here when you thought it supported your arguments. When bank example backfired, when it played against you, you started shouting in caps lock. 

Quote from the Paypal website: "The PayPal service is provided by PayPal Australia Pty Limited (ABN 93 111 195 389) which holds Australian Financial Services Licence number 304962." 

Selling counterfeit products is illegal in Australia. Supporting fraud is illegal in Australia.

Please stop shouting. Caps lock does not change facts - Paypal policy is wrong.

[kernowlass]

@timbo649 

Its called emphasis, look it up.

The bank is not irrelavent it was put as an example.

PayPal Australia Pty Limited is a foreign owned, private company that derives its revenue from the provision of a secure online payments network. The company employs approximately 140 people, operates in Australia, and is administered from its head office in Sydney.

PayPal Australia Pty Limited's ultimate parent is US-based Paypal Holdings Inc, a provider of secure online payment solutions.

So again, paypal is NOT (emphasis) a bank.

And yes of course selling fakes is against the law, so you have the option to take any seller that breaks the law in your country to the appropriate courts if you want to or paypal may well request you to not return fake items to an Australian seller.

However its NOT against the law to sell fake items in China, and as you chose to buy from a seller in China then the seller has the right to receive their goods back again.