Paypal horror story: $7,500 return to scammer lost in mail. What to do next?

[Alexe123]

It's absolutely a horror story. About three months ago already, I purchased a collectible from a man in the UK for $7,450. When it arrived, I was pretty excited, but then immediately horrified when I saw that he had sent me an absolutely useless item in its place. So, obviously, I immediately took the steps to file a case. I also sent the seller an email. Surprise! No response.

[A little later, I also contacted the Northamptonshire police department, who filed a fraud report with Action Fraud on my behalf. Apparently, this same guy had sold this same item 3 other times. A scam running approximately $30,000.]

After I escalated the case, PayPal requested that I provide documentation that the item was not as described. I sent in photographs of how the items obviously differed. "Not acceptable evidence." So I had to drive all over the place to find a dealer (there wasn't a local one due to the uncommon nature of the collectible), and then wait for them to draft up a letter--a $30 valuation service.

I sent the letter in and finally PayPal allowed me to return the item. Imagine that. I provided documentation that the item I received was worthless, and was required to send it back to the UK for my $7,450 refund. I called PayPal and talked to a representative asking about the best way to ensure I would get my money back and whether or not I would have to insure the item. She assured me that because I provided documentation that the item was valueless, I would not have to insure the item.

I went to the post office and sent the package back via registered mail, paying around $30. I updated the case with the proper information on the 9th, and have been checking every single day, awaiting its return.

As I was checking, I saw a little note on the claim that said "PayPal will contact you if further information is required by June 17th." I thought this was odd, since that date had already passed (it was around the 20th by then). So I called and was assured that everything would by fine, and that the date would automatically update to around July 7th to be checked for delivery.

Today, at 9:37PM, I received an email from PayPal saying that they CLOSED my claim. To me, this seems completely boundless and unreasonable. I called PayPal, unbelievably frustrated and horrified, and was informed that NO MATTER WHAT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOEVER, INCLUDING IF THE MAIL COURIER TRUCK WERE TO EXPLODE WITH THE RETURN INSIDE, PayPal could not return my payment unless delivery receipt was confirmed.

I have filed an inquiry with USPS to track my registered mail. And now I am writing this, because I am at my wit's end. Please, for the love of God, tell me what I did wrong and what I can fix.

[Alexe123]

I still have absolutely no idea what to do

[sharpiemarker]

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@Alexe123 wrote:
In retrospect I obviously should've chosen another service, but I was made unclear as to whether or not it needed to be jnsured, etc. I assumed that if I were lost, I would just pay the difference--as if a seller's item got lost and refunded the buyer. That's why nothing made sense, as the item is complete garbage, and it doesn't make sense to send it back. I just cannot understand for the life of me how returning and item is help from PayPal. Is PayPal really so naive (or idiotic) to believe that a scammer wouldn't have something up his sleeve to prevent package delivery and therefore collect??? I am infernally frustrated. Odds are, if that's all he needs to do, in spite of ALL the evidence I've brought forward, he'll find a way to do it!!

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So have you tracked the package lately at USPS.com or at Royal Mail website?

To clarify, was the amount you paid $74.50 or $7,450.00?

Item is worth at least the amount you paid as your refund is contingent upon it's return so I wouldn't say it's garbage. 🙂  It's not what you want, yes, so it should be returned if the seller want it returned or a return is the only option open to you in order to get your money back.

Naive or idiotic, PayPal requires proof of delivery in order to consider ruling in your favor.  You can try and call them and kick up such a storm that they might refund you as goodwill.

Presently, continue to keep on top of Royal Mail to provide proof of delivery in order to appeal your closed claim and contact USPS to have them open an investigation into the whereabouts of the parcel.

Push comes to shove, if you paid by credit card, you may also want to see if you can dispute the charge and supply your evidence there. 

If all else fails, you may have to accept that you were unlucky in this transaction and try to move on.

[kernowlass]

Look at the title of the thread, he paid over $7500 dollars for something not worth anything like that.

So he did not insure it as he could not insure it for that amount as that would be fraud against the postal system BUT the point is he was advised NOT to insure it by a paypal customer services agent.

He sent it trackable but not arrived so at the moment he is out thousands of dollars for doing what he was advised to do send the item back non insured but trackable.

[Alexe123]

I had called PayPal customer service the night before I sent it out, and was told that I should not insure the package. I was going to purchase the postage online, but could not purchase signature confirmation through the USPS website. I took it to the post office the next morning and purchased first class, registered mail for approximately $30. I was told that this was the safest option and that it would include delivery confirmation as well as signature confirmation. I did not realize that it is actually even safer than that, with the package requiring a signature each time it changes hands, etc. 

Kernowlass is correct. Not only was I told not to insure the package (which PayPal will undoubtedly not take responsibility for doing), but it would have been ILLEGAL for me to do so. Even if the item was worth, by indirect reasioning, $7,500, a USPS insurance claim requires proof of value. To provide the PayPal payment for a different item that was not enclosed in the shipping envelope would have been fraud. The item he shipped me was worth approximately $5 on a good day--so that is what I declared its value for, and I left it uninsured. In my head, the PayPal agent had assured me that, if the package were to go missing, I would only have to compensate the seller for the lost item--as I had provided proof of the item's worth in my document from the record store. Actually, the representative said something very close to that affect, and I ended the call feeling very sure I would be protected.

Update: I called another representative and was coolly told the same thing: basically, that it is my fault that USPS has not delivered the package and there is nothing I can do through PayPal. I was advised to contact the FBI due to the serious nature of the fraud ($30,000) and have filed a c3i complaint--though something about filing a complaint with a federal bureau makes me wonder what help they will be catching an international criminal. I have also sent an email to the seller's email account informing him that I both intend to take legal action and have contacted the FBI (last night) as well as the Northamptonshire **bleep** and Action Fraud (about a week ago).

I was unable to get a hold of Royal Mail today due to the time difference, but will try again tomorrow. 

I also contacted Wells Fargo, the issuer of my debit card, to ask about the chargeback deadline. I had asked the PayPal agent about double recovery, and was told that if I file for a chargeback, I will lose my chance to recover the $6,000 I (idiotically) paid through PayPal. Lesson learned: NEVER pay with funds in a PayPal account, ALWAYS from a secure credit or debit card. I thought I was done for at this point--as I could choose to throw in the towel and file for a $1,450 chargeback and lose $6,000, or wait and potentially recover absolutely nothing. Basically, those are the options that PayPal gave me. LUCKILY, and I am considering this by complete chance (as PayPal was absolutely no help in this matter), Wells Fargo has a policy where chargebacks can be filed after the 60 day deadline, as long as pertinent documentation (ie the date and price--now recorded in multiple places) is provided.

I just cannot believe the bull PayPal is putting me through. If I had any better options, I would NEVER use PayPal again for charges over like $20. It is unbelievable to me that, as a loyal customer for approximately 8 years, I am unable to receive justice from their service.

[sharpiemarker]

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@Alexe123 wrote:

I had called PayPal customer service the night before I sent it out, and was told that I should not insure the package. I was going to purchase the postage online, but could not purchase signature confirmation through the USPS website. I took it to the post office the next morning and purchased first class, registered mail for approximately $30. I was told that this was the safest option and that it would include delivery confirmation as well as signature confirmation. I did not realize that it is actually even safer than that, with the package requiring a signature each time it changes hands, etc. 

Kernowlass is correct. Not only was I told not to insure the package (which PayPal will undoubtedly not take responsibility for doing), but it would have been ILLEGAL for me to do so. Even if the item was worth, by indirect reasioning, $7,500, a USPS insurance claim requires proof of value. To provide the PayPal payment for a different item that was not enclosed in the shipping envelope would have been fraud. The item he shipped me was worth approximately $5 on a good day--so that is what I declared its value for, and I left it uninsured. In my head, the PayPal agent had assured me that, if the package were to go missing, I would only have to compensate the seller for the lost item--as I had provided proof of the item's worth in my document from the record store. Actually, the representative said something very close to that affect, and I ended the call feeling very sure I would be protected.

Update: I called another representative and was coolly told the same thing: basically, that it is my fault that USPS has not delivered the package and there is nothing I can do through PayPal. I was advised to contact the FBI due to the serious nature of the fraud ($30,000) and have filed a c3i complaint--though something about filing a complaint with a federal bureau makes me wonder what help they will be catching an international criminal. I have also sent an email to the seller's email account informing him that I both intend to take legal action and have contacted the FBI (last night) as well as the Northamptonshire **bleep** and Action Fraud (about a week ago).

I was unable to get a hold of Royal Mail today due to the time difference, but will try again tomorrow. 

I also contacted Wells Fargo, the issuer of my debit card, to ask about the chargeback deadline. I had asked the PayPal agent about double recovery, and was told that if I file for a chargeback, I will lose my chance to recover the $6,000 I (idiotically) paid through PayPal. Lesson learned: NEVER pay with funds in a PayPal account, ALWAYS from a secure credit or debit card. I thought I was done for at this point--as I could choose to throw in the towel and file for a $1,450 chargeback and lose $6,000, or wait and potentially recover absolutely nothing. Basically, those are the options that PayPal gave me. LUCKILY, and I am considering this by complete chance (as PayPal was absolutely no help in this matter), Wells Fargo has a policy where chargebacks can be filed after the 60 day deadline, as long as pertinent documentation (ie the date and price--now recorded in multiple places) is provided.

I just cannot believe the bull PayPal is putting me through. If I had any better options, I would NEVER use PayPal again for charges over like $20. It is unbelievable to me that, as a loyal customer for approximately 8 years, I am unable to receive justice from their service.

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Not disputing what the PayPal rep said to you about not insuring.  Like I said, if it is a high value, or risky, me, I would insure it.  I'll let the insurance co. tell me I won't be covered.

You file a chargeback when you have exhausted all chances of recovery from PayPal where they refuse to refund.

Also call up USPS intl inquiry and provide your customs label # so they can place an investigation of the package. 

It's possible that it can just be held up somewhere.  It happens.  I happen to sell vinyl records internationally online myself and if something doesn't arrive in 5 - 10 days normally overseas, it will take up to 50 - 60 day mark. Registered Mail is still First Class delivery speed where delivery time varies by country as opposed to USPS's other premium services.  Past 50-60 days assume it's lost but sometimes it comes back because someone didn't claim it or address is incorrect.

[sharpiemarker]

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@kernowlass wrote:

Look at the title of the thread, he paid over $7500 dollars for something not worth anything like that.

So he did not insure it as he could not insure it for that amount as that would be fraud against the postal system BUT the point is he was advised NOT to insure it by a paypal customer services agent.

He sent it trackable but not arrived so at the moment he is out thousands of dollars for doing what he was advised to do send the item back non insured but trackable.

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Yes I know what the title says, just making sure it wasn't a typo! 

And how is it fraud?  He has a receipt of the amount paid for the item he's returning.  If he was to file a claim for loss, he would have to supply the invoice/receipt for the amount paid.  If the PayPal customer service rep advised the buyer to insure it, would it still be considered fraud? 

Me, personally I would have insured it, hands down because 7500 bucks is a lot of money.

[kernowlass]

Think we are getting a tad mixed up here.

The item he bought was worth thousands, the item he received was worth very little.

So if he sent it back insured saying it was worth thousands and it got lost then to be honest how can he claim back thousands for an item that was not worth that amount.

That is what i meant by fraud....sorry if it was misleading.

But my point really is that the OP is in a tricky situation.

Even if he had insured it, if he was honest he would only have got back a fraction of what the item was worth if he was honest when he insured it.

But my point is that the customer services operative told him not to insure it anyway. The OP did as advised and sent it back and it was ?? lost in the post but he will lose out as it was impossible for him to insure it for the correct cost as the item he received was not of that value.

So he is in a bit of a catch 22 situation.

Yes paypal says they must have proof of delivery back to the seller and that is often very fair BUT normally if an item is lost the buyer can claim the amount of the returned item back from the insurance but the OP can't do that as the item he returned was a cheap copy of what he paid for.

I think as he sent it trackable but could not insure it for the correct value AND paypal told him not to insure it anyway that they should apply a bit of common sense as the OP has done as much as he could possibly do apart from fly to England and return it in person.   

Normally for a small amount of money its irrelevant but this is thousands of pounds and i think paypal should review this........just my opinion really.

[sharpiemarker]

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@kernowlass wrote:

Think we are getting a tad mixed up here.

The item he bought was worth thousands, the item he received was worth very little.

So if he sent it back insured saying it was worth thousands and it got lost then to be honest how can he claim back thousands for an item that was not worth that amount.

That is what i meant by fraud....sorry if it was misleading.

But my point really is that the OP is in a tricky situation.

Even if he had insured it, if he was honest he would only have got back a fraction of what the item was worth if he was honest when he insured it.

But my point is that the customer services operative told him not to insure it anyway. The OP did as advised and sent it back and it was ?? lost in the post but he will lose out as it was impossible for him to insure it for the correct cost as the item he received was not of that value.

So he is in a bit of a catch 22 situation.

Yes paypal says they must have proof of delivery back to the seller and that is often very fair BUT normally if an item is lost the buyer can claim the amount of the returned item back from the insurance but the OP can't do that as the item he returned was a cheap copy of what he paid for.

I think as he sent it trackable but could not insure it for the correct value AND paypal told him not to insure it anyway that they should apply a bit of common sense as the OP has done as much as he could possibly do apart from fly to England and return it in person.   

Normally for a small amount of money its irrelevant but this is thousands of pounds and i think paypal should review this........just my opinion really.

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I understand and you're right, it's a catch 22.  But sheesh, 7500 bucks is like a few months of wages for some folks. lol  Although it can also be argued that if you insure at high value, it would bring attention of would-be thieves in transit.  XDamned, if you do and xdamned if you don't, I guess.

[Alexe123]

It's absolutely fraud... He attempted to scam me out of money, and so far has succeeded. Honest sellers don't send the incorrect item and then never respond to a buyer. Keep in mind he also listed this item apparently 4 other times, including twice in January and twice in April... And he made his feedback private and deleted his account after selling me the item.

[Alexe123]

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kernowlass wrote:

Yes paypal says they must have proof of delivery back to the seller and that is often very fair BUT normally if an item is lost the buyer can claim the amount of the returned item back from the insurance but the OP can't do that as the item he returned was a cheap copy of what he paid for.

I think as he sent it trackable but could not insure it for the correct value AND paypal told him not to insure it anyway that they should apply a bit of common sense as the OP has done as much as he could possibly do apart from fly to England and return it in person.   

Normally for a small amount of money its irrelevant but this is thousands of pounds and i think paypal should review this........just my opinion really.

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Even if I flew to England, PayPal would request a tracking number