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PayPal allows to abuse "the item is significantly different from how it was described"

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PayPal allows to abuse "the item is significantly different from how it was described"

I. PayPal's dispute/claim criteria of "the item is significantly different from how it was described (e.g. you described an item as “new,” but sent a used one)", stipulated on www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/security/seller-protection, are not met by manufacturer's defects in new, factory sealed item, when the item description is without a disclaimer of mfr 's defects (hence, they might be present). A possibility of mfr 's defects is implied when not excluded by a disclaimer. Mfr 's defects are random and unknown in factory sealed items. They cannot be predicted and thus are not excluded by default. When such a disclaimer is absent, any mfr 's defect is within the description and a dispute/claim as to mfr's defects out of the description is false. Absence of exclusion (no disclaimer) makes the description unspecified excluding any claim of a difference with the description. When something is not described, it cannot be claimed as different. See the claim PP-007-392-338-794.
II. PayPal falsely considered the claim under the absent condition of the item's returnability inconsistent with the provision of the eBay transaction stating that the item cannot be returned resulting in eBay's dismissal of the claim. Thus, PayPal considered the claim not under any provision of the actual transaction. That does not make any legal sense.
III. PayPal allowed buyer file the claim 34 days after receiving the printer while the longest return period for technology items is 30 days and typical - 14 days also at Staples incl. online (www.staples.com/sbd/cre/help-center/returns-policy/), so even, if the item had been sold with a return option (it was not), the buyer would not have been eligible to return the item after 14/30 days and thus eBay did not grant his claim according to the conditions of the sale.

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Esteemed Advisor

Re: PayPal allows to abuse "the item is significantly different from how it was described"

@Eugene11

 

A buyer has up to 180 days to open a dispute.

This is the same timeframe as someone that pays with a credit card. Someone can do a chargeback even after Staples terms of sale.

As paypal never see the item its always one persons word against anothers, so paypal tend to favour the buyer but the buyer has to return the item back to the seller first at their own expense.


Advice is voluntarily given.
Kudos / Solution appreciated if I helped you.

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13 REPLIES 13
Esteemed Advisor

Re: PayPal allows to abuse "the item is significantly different from how it was described"

@Eugene11

 

A buyer has up to 180 days to open a dispute.

This is the same timeframe as someone that pays with a credit card. Someone can do a chargeback even after Staples terms of sale.

As paypal never see the item its always one persons word against anothers, so paypal tend to favour the buyer but the buyer has to return the item back to the seller first at their own expense.


Advice is voluntarily given.
Kudos / Solution appreciated if I helped you.

View solution in original post

Contributor

Re: PayPal allows to abuse "the item is significantly different from how it was described"

@kernowlass,
You are completely missing the point here. Nobody questions the buyer's right to seek assistance within 180 days, but only the justification of the PayPal response mixing up 180 days for filing claim with a completely different legal concept/notion of a return period stipulated by the terms of sale. Period for claiming is something else than period for return. 2 different things.
   I. Once any credit card finds that a buyer had no right to return the item according to the terms of the transaction, it rejects the claim as exceeding the terms, as eBay did. Credits cards do not impose their own terms on transactions between third parties, but only verify compliance with the existing terms, but PayPal imposed its own term absent from the transaction on eBay. That term was not considering the claim within 180 days, as credit cards do, but presuming that new items must be sold with a return option. That is legal nonsense. Credit cards do not make their own terms for transactions between third parties, as the terms are the business of those parties and not of the credit cards. The item could have been and was sold without a return option for less that a half of the same item with such an option. That was the term, for which the price was so low. Imagine, you sell silverware made of aluminum not mentioned in the description, the buyer claims that it was not made of silver, and PayPal agrees that silverware must be made of silver. It does not! PayPal is not in the business of making its own contracts between independent third parties, but only checking compliance with the terms.
   II. 180 days for making claims, as the credit cards allow, does not mean that the new items have 180 return period. Items have contractual return periods, which are 14/30 days at Staples and 0 days in my case the buyer agreed to accept by paying for the item. 180 days are only for claiming and not modifying the terms of sale. Once a credit card finds out that claimant exceeded the contractual period for return, it rejects the claim as unsupported by the terms of the sale. If I had sold the printer with a return option, it would have been 14 days, but the buyer made the claim 34 days after the delivery of the item, within period of which the buyer could have printed up to 700 pages and brake the paper feeder by using inappropriate media, which could have ruined the feeder. For that reason the return period is only 14 days at Staples. No credit card would extend it. Each claim beyond that period is rejected by all credit cards. Mixing it with 180 days for making claim is incompetent and legally nonsensical.
   III. PayPal's dispute/claim criteria of "the item is significantly different from how it was described (e.g. you described an item as “new,” but sent a used one)", stipulated on www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/security/seller-protection, are not met by manufacturer's defects in new, factory sealed item, when the item description is without a disclaimer of mfr 's defects (hence, they might be present). A possibility of mfr 's defects is implied when not excluded by a disclaimer. Mfr 's defects are random and unknown in factory sealed items. They cannot be predicted and thus are not excluded by default. When such a disclaimer is absent, any mfr 's defect is within the description and a dispute/claim as to mfr's defects out of the description is false. Absence of exclusion (no disclaimer) makes the description unspecified excluding any claim of a difference with the description. When something is not described, it cannot be claimed as different.

Advisor

Re: PayPal allows to abuse "the item is significantly different from how it was described"

The best way to avoid such situation is not to sell on Ebay and accept Paypal.or credit card

as buyer if he lost on EBAY,will turn to Paypal,if he lost on Paypal,he will go to his cc issuer.

Since you are not BBY or Staples,his cc issuer wil tend to side with him,by then he will not need to return the printer but get his money back while you will be slapped with a $20 chargeback fee.

See,it may sound unfair to you but the only persons who know the truth are you and your buyer,the others have never seen it,if it is BBY or Staples,they are in the business of buying from factory and reselling them,so called MIB,mint in box condition,in the eyes of the cc issuers,they have more credibility than you and I.

Everyone knows by now Ebay is fleamarket,folks sell what they find,in attic,basement,storage box,work,home,it could be refufbished,beat up.

sell it in local classified ad and specify local pickp,cash only.  

Contributor

Re: PayPal allows to abuse "the item is significantly different from how it was described"

@nevadasmith,
   No, several months ago I managed to convince eBay not to side with buyer' claims for returns of items without return, which were killing that type of sales, and eBay has changed its policy and now distinguishes between items with and without return rejecting buyer's claims for return of non-returnable items, as a matter of legal principle and not a favor to sellers. Credit cards have always considered only contractual terms, have never interfered with the terms, like PayPal this time, but only sided with buyers within the terms and also, as a matter of legal principle. PayPal simply violates the law.

  I hope, I will convince them too to reconsider such violations in this particular instance. 180 days for filing a claim is to give time for items not delivered, failed refunds, sneaky seller's tactics, etc., and not to extend return periods or making them up, like in this case, or to modify any terms of contracts between third parties, as a matter of legal principle, and not a favor or discretion. So, your views are personal/subjective and not applicable here. The item was new in factory sealed packaging, like in retail.

Advisor

Re: PayPal allows to abuse "the item is significantly different from how it was described"

as far as Ebay and Paypal is concerned,ITEM NOT AS DESCRIBED trump seller no return policy.

have you tried appealing? 

better to avoid selling on ebay and accepting paypal payments 

Contributor

Re: PayPal allows to abuse "the item is significantly different from how it was described"

@nevadasmith,
The items are new, described as new, and delivered new. The abusive claims described here pertain only and exclusively to manufacturer defects in new items in factory sealed packagings where defects are hidden from, and unknown to, the seller (as the items are factory sealed and never seen), those new items are sold without return, and their description is without a disclaimer of defects, as it is unknown what inside, and thus it is presumed that such defects might be present at the rate of their occurrence in such new items and thus DEFECT PRESENCE IS CONSISTENT WITH THE DESCRIPTION since they are not excluded. Hence, in case of defects, the buyers must rely on manufacturer warranties/customer services, as when return expires for items bought in the retail, e.g. Staple after 14/30 days from the sales.
In other words, buyers buy new items without return under the terms of a third party (eBay) for even less than a half price of such items with return, and go to PayPal, which grants them returns (God knows why) and imposes that return on sellers who sold somewhere else (eBay) where that absence of return is respected, as well as by credit cards. Only PayPal invents and imposes a return term... thus illegally.
I allege that PayPal violates law by assuming (God knows from) and imposing return term on such transactions, where no return, and grants return to buyer's claims unlike credit cards do, as return is not a term of the original transaction and eBay rejects such claims. My problem is exactly that assuming (God knows from) and imposing by PayPal the return term on the third party transactions of sale of items described and delivered as new without return. Nothing else.

Contributor

Re: PayPal allows to abuse "the item is significantly different from how it was described"

@nevadasmith,
   In short, I believe that a random occurrence of manufacturer's defects not excluded in the descriptions of new, factory sealed items, and delivered as such, is consistent with those descriptions and thus do not meet the PayPal's dispute/claim criteria requiring that "the item is significantly different from how it was described (e.g. you described an item as “new,” but sent a used one)" provided on www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/security/seller-protection.

Contributor

Re: PayPal allows to abuse "the item is significantly different from how it was described"

@nevadasmith,
   And, the fact that the item is new and in factory sealed packaging eliminates the suspicion that the seller could have known anything about any defects and tried to trick or take advantage of the buyer in any way, as it is as honest transaction as buying from the retail and thus the buyer does suffer from the hand of the seller, hence not deserving any extra return protection made up by PayPal thus God knows why.

Advisor

Re: PayPal allows to abuse "the item is significantly different from how it was described"

Like the other poster said,neither Paypal nor Ebay  has seen the item,so there is no way to tell who is telling the truth.

So they do what they deem to be fair,buyer returns the item ,get his money back and shop again and the seller gets his item back and resell.

Time is better spent looking for a more suitable venue and payment processor,there are others out there.