Client opened a dispute of unauthorized subject and has the product

[asgl]

Hello. I hope someone can help. We have 4 months we opened our business to sell computer hardware and accessories. Until now we only made 4 sales online. Yes very bad the sales. We are with high large IT Distributors as Techdata, D&H Distributin, Malabs, etc. Now the case is that a client brought 3 CPU processors, then they were shipped and delivered, then at the week after the order was delivered aprox., that client made another new order with identical products, and again the products were shipped and delivered. The carriers were FEDEX and UPS. Now, after 1 week of delivered the second order I received an email of PayPal that the client opened with her/his financial is institution a dispute of unauthorized transaction. Imagine that! A fraudulent client, very clear!

We called PayPal immediately and on the account appears we have the balance in debt with them for the 1300 US cost of the order the client wants to steal, because they had the product. Then, we went to the resolution center to see the case and upload evidence of the emails of the client, invoices, shipments, etc. However, we saw that indeed it was the dispute opened but PayPal but for our account there was no option to upload evidence. Rare not? Well, I said that to the PayPal agent via phone and the agent told me to send an email with the evidence to a PayPal email.

Now, the agent of PayPal told me that now I need to pay PayPal that money and with luck in no more than 90 days with the right evidence, we could recover our money. What convenient. We have 4 sales in 4 months each sale has the margin of 100 US profits or less and that money we use to buy more goods and they said us with luck we can recover our money for this fraud.

Of course we sent email to the client, and of course the client doesn’t answer then this shows more the intention of fraud. The PayPal agent after send the email told me to hang the phone and wait for confirmation of received of PayPal. That email never arrived. Then I called back and I needed to say to another agent to wait again until the evidence was received. I waited the agent confirmed and she said that she saw the evidence and is clear that the client received the products. Including that agent told me that the evidence shows that the client made the order by herself/himself and it doesn’t enter in the subject of “unauthorized”, as the client opened, and starting with this the client is doing the wrong because with products delivered and after the client placed the order, it’s more than clear the fraud and the intention. One time that client sent me an email asking for the tracking number imagine! After they opened the dispute the client never answered.

The point is when we opened the PayPal account business we were promised for protection and blablabla, now we noted PayPal wants the money of something a client stole us and they simply wish me luck for 90 days of a process of another financial institution and not them. Supposed this is because the financial institution is against PayPal, and us of course. One point to note is that all our evidence is clear more than the water, but we see a lack of protection and support, different of what we were promised.

It’s supposed PayPal will continue waiting the news of that financial institution and see if they accept or not the evidence. PayPal wants the money and the most rare why we couldn’t upload evidence in our account dashboard? PayPal disabled that feature to obligate us to pay? The agents on the phone told me that feature should be enabled but not, when we were at the phone they confirmed that it was not enabled for this case. The case appears is running to kill us, paying the money of products we sent and that fraudulent client has in her/his hands.

What is suggested to do here? What is the protection supposed we need to claim to PayPal? Because they want the money like priority and for us can be a disaster because someone wants to steal us 1300 US and including having all the evidence and all perfectly clear, we note we don’t have real protection.

We hope someone can help us to give us orientation and avoid being victims of this fraud.

Thank you

[sharpiemarker]

@asgl 

To be covered under seller protection for unauthorized payment chargeback, proof of delivery or proof of postage (minimum) is needed. And the funds are held pending outcome of the dispute.

If you do not have the funds in the PayPal balance, the balance will be in the negative and PayPal want to you to pay to zero out the balance so you can continue to use the account for your sales or avoid your account being sent to collections. Or, if you do receive payments in the meantime, the funds will go towards the zero-ing the balance automatically.

PayPal wants to fight case because they got good evidence but the process is through the bank rules and the bank make the final decision and PayPal want to see if you win or not before they start to even consider doling out money to cover your loss. This is not small amount. PayPal does a lot of transactions and if they get hit with these kinds of cases at these amounts and cover everyone before the case is ruled on, they'd go broke or charging people a lot more to use their services. They don't want to give you the money and you just pat your behind be on your merry way and not have liability. No, that's now how it works, you are held liable if you lose until they decide to cover you.

It's a like walking on a tightrope now.  If you should win, the money you paid to zero out the PayPal balance will go back to you. If you lose, then PayPal considers if your transaction meets the basic and additional requirements to be covered under seller protection. There are times, though people have reported that PayPal didn't cover them in such cases but we do not know exactly why; maybe they didn't meet the basic and additional requirements for one reason or another and no one told them exactly why and the people who tell their story here maybe didn't know the policy enough to know if they are covered or not to share it with us readers.

So read the seller protection programs terms to see if you meet those basic and additional requirements and how the chargeback process work:

Seller Protection

https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/security/seller-protection

https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/security/resolve-disputes

https://www.paypal.com/us/brc/article/customer-disputes-claims-chargebacks-bank-reversals

Sorry this buyer cause you so much problem and I understand it is bad to be in this position just after 4 months of doing business 😞  but take some time to think about the situation really carefully for your approach in dealing with it. 

The client won't talk to you. They are not going to give you more evidence to throw against them if they respond to you.

So you were able to provide all your evidence through email? I am not sure why the upload function is not there but try this if  you need to upload more: 

http://www.paypal.com/il/uploaddoc

***Please read the "learn how to" documentation link for your documents so you know what you uploading the correct way, correct format and the requirements for uploading. 

Then let PayPal know you uploaded some more. That is, if you need to upload more, of course.

Sorry again to hear this happen to you and wish you best of luck and hope you win.

Best,

Sharpie

[asgl]

I will try to talk with supervisors. Yes it’s rare the option to upload documents in the resolution center, thing that let me think there is something there to make us fall. The problem with 4 sales, red numbers and we have charged all credit cards, then we don’t have the money to cover that thing in PayPal. Two sales were for that thief client. The curiosity that client claim just one sale and in our e-commerce they need to register all their data as address, etc. athen unauthorized of what if they made the purchases. By fortune we have the info cues if the large IT distributors where the state the shipping and how it was shipped. It was unexpected and the worst imagine to try to sell we are having profits very low 100, 50 maybe per order. This is worst than to play the stock markets where you loss all the money for sure. Any person can buy anything now and in 15 days do the same. Where is the law? With this can be reported to the police or similar? Could be useful? We have a big problem because we cannot afford that payment and these thief we note this must be a modus operandi but in this case is taking the company almost to the closing because if PayPal send to collectors or does something agains us instead of protect this will be the end of the company. How a lack of this can happen. Anyone can do anything like this and win. With this I see the thief’s on the street they don’t need to go to the street to steal, they are risking more, now the thief’s are in internet because the financial institutions, I don’t know why, but they ignore the rest just to have more clients in their bank. My wife is devastated because we had plans to announce and make marketing and now a person of California without laws, he can steal with full hands anything like go to a gift store where everything is free because PayPal and the financial institutions say the client is first and no matter if is a thief or something worst. So sad. We will call tomorrow but the policies are made to destroy you as a seller. Even zi asked to PayPal and as a seller you can’t open a dispute, just a client. So sad! 

[asgl]

Any other solution to this? Yesterday I called to a representative that says it was for security of PayPal she told me everything was fine and no problem at all. They received my evidencie and all perfect. Now, I called to ask for supervisors and all agents drop you the call I see something dirty with PayPal. One agent told me that I don’t have protection if anything and almost laughed and dropped me the call laughing after it was supposed the supervisor would call. I note they are running away and like we are new in business some agents gave us bad orientation supposed what other agent said. They only sent hammering messages in the system to pay and we explained everything about our bankruptcy and all. Simply there are no supervisor who wants to answer and the same the agents laugh. This is a joke. A fraud happened and they act as if this was not serious. The lady who answered me yesterday told me that everything was fine and we didn’t need to worry about and that she wrote some notes. Now a regular agent the one who laughed told me it was a lie and the lady of security she never entered notes and unfortunately we need to pay and we don’t have protection.

Then PayPal is doing bad here and is acting illegally because they laugh they don’t want to do anything and the worst they are lying. This is not serious. What we need to do to defend including PayPal or what’s happening because we want to report including with the recording of our conversations they have report how the agents are acting and they have responsibility because even the agents told us how to do some circumstances and now they are running including of what they said they are doing. The fraudulent person has our product and the money and PayPal is running. The total amount is 1300+ Now they confirmed imagine the situation. What can we do? Because PayPal is acting neglect and they also have responsibility.

[sharpiemarker]

@asgl 

What do you want PayPal to do, just pay you back, right now? I mean that'll be great and everyone just pat their behinds and don't have to worry about responsibility but you know deep down they can't run their business like that. No one in their right mind would run their business like that and there's millions and millions of PayPal accounts. Disputes going on every day. Some high value and low value and they add up.

The buyer filed dispute with their bank, this dispute is against paypal's merchant account and we are sub accounts that are held liable. The buyer's bank and PayPal's bank fight it out. If you have the proof, and gave the proof, that's all you can do is wait for the decision by the bank. And zero out the PayPal balance so your account won't be closed.

In the meantime, you have to drum up more business. Get a loan to float your business. Without some capital already on hand, your business will fail, because of this one dispute. Don't let that happen. 

What do you mean PayPal is setting up for you to fail? This is how the credit card chargeback dispute process works, it is much tougher on the seller from what I understand. Using PayPal to accept/process payments and their dispute process is a walk in the park if you compare with credit card merchant account rules. You have to have 1% rate of chargeback cases, something very low or they cancel your account. PayPal lets you have unlimited cases filed until they say, "that's enough".  I think it is terrible how some PayPal agents can behave but I can also understand their point of view too. Users call in angry and frustrated, language barriers, some people not so bright using a complicated financial instrument such as PayPal...not reading terms or not even exploring how PayPal account works. Don't want to add bank or card or have problem adding bank or card or PayPal site giving them problems to add bank and card. Talking about suing PayPal at a drop of a hat. It's a circus!

I dunno. I really am truly sorry that you having this problem. Buyers in general do this a lot because to scam or they don't remember making order, claim not what they order and cause sellers a lot of headache. I know. Stick around in the forums you will know and read the stories. You also have sellers ripping off buyers too so it is not a one-way street. Its also not dispute with businesses but also individuals too. Their accounts are breached or a scammer trick them into making a payment and they disappear. Or they send a friends and family payment to wrong email by mistake and there is no refund on friends and family payments. Like I said, it's a circus.

I hope that you can find a way out and hope you win the case and hope that PayPal cover your loss.

Best,

Sharpie

P.S. I will say this, you have a higher probability of being covered for loss by PayPal with Unauthorized Payment chargeback, than if the buyer chargedback for Significantly Not As Described (SNAD) according to seller protection program. You are automatically not covered on SNADs.

[asgl]

The same way PayPal has the problems we also have. We don’t opened a PayPal account to receive laughs, lies and bad orientation and give free product to a thief or free money to PayPal. Believe me that mine we need more than the parasites theft or PayPal. We are not a charity. PayPal sometimes acts dishonest. Read this history. This was not the first problem of the agents. The first sale one of the only 4 we had, one agent told us to ship the product without saying us how to claim the money. He told us to ship and done. By surprise when we checked the status of the money we thought it was just with time to be in our account but not. The payment was in eternal pending with the passing of the days. Then I said in myself I need to talk to a PayPal, and Imdid and another agent told me that I was bad oriented by the previous agent and that we needed to click in capture to claim the money because if we don’t click in capture the money never will be transferred to our account. Well that agent told me how to capture and by surprise when we clicked capture the system triggered error. Guess why because it passed more than 3 days without capture then the same, phone calls, hangs, laughs until we found a supervisor who told me that the money is lost unless I had evidence the agent gave me bad orientation. A and I said do you want evidence? Well hear the phone calls between the rang of days of the capture. And he said he could understand and he gave me a hope to recover that money afternhear the conversations. And after one day by my surprise the supervisor called and indeed he found the evidence in the phone calls and we were bad oriented he refunded the money by their bad error and attitude.

Niw is the same the bad attitude and intention of PayPal agents is what are costing more to PayPal than the disputes. They make critical errors and they make you have them. Now, in this case is the same the agents as you saw they told us to capture the money after is triggered by our e-commerce. Well the agent who laughed told me I was lost because also we were oriented bad by another agent. And I said the send me to a supervisor, and he dropped the call. ai did the same to try to contact a supervisor until we reached the out of office hours. 3 and half hours trying to call. We have to try to work to make profits to avoid the bankruptcy and losing time like this with the fun of some of the PayPal agents for hours. Here appears the client, that believe me he didn’t forget the order, he is a stealer profesional. And after we sent emails they don’t answer because they stole the product and the money now. It’s so sad but imagine, one can make a loan with a company, and imagine now another sale is triggered and there is another fraudulent client and in one second the money and product is in their favor. There is a lack of protection here.

[Ackison]

Thanks

[asgl]

Look the case:

Welcome to PayPal message center, my name is Supreetha.

Hi Ruben, I understand that you want us to chat with you about the seller protection and the dispute case id.

I see that the case was filed with the financial company of the buyer. This transaction was filed as unauthorized transaction from the buyer end. The case is now closed on the buyers end and the refund is initiated.

You will have to contact the buyer and deal this directly with the buyer as the case was closed in buyers favor.

[asgl]

What can be done now? PayPal is corrupt? They hang the phone.