What happened to seller protection!

[Sweetpea]

Where is seller protection! When you describe a item accurately and you have sold the same item before with no problems. And you have a no return policy plainly stated at the beginning of your listing. You do everything Paypal ask you to do. They still give the money back to the seller. Why. I'm so discouraged and ready to quit selling on Ebay and messing with Paypal.

[hapless_seller]

There is no seller protection policy anymore.  The page is missing from paypal and apparently so is the action by paypal.  I had a chargeback for an item I shipped to my buyer.  The buyer used a fraudulent address I later discovered.  When i printed the paypal label the information indicated I was covered on this sale.

My buyer chose the least expensive way to ship.  Since this item was returned I had to pay postage both ways on the item and the chargeback still occured.

I informed ebay of the fake address, no response.

I gave paypal the tracking information for the shipment, showing returned to sender.  They apparently cannot decipher that complicated shipping information because they "cannot determine what happened to the shipment" form the informatiion provided.   AAAARGH!

[FAIRTRADE]

Agreed.  There is NO seller protection.  I never use paypal shipping any more, as my post office receipt if the best proof of shipping there is.  I've been an ebay seller & buyer for years, and it's SELLER BEWARE.  Their response is that they are not responsible for all the addresses and who is out there. 

I've been able to prove mail fraud, internet fraud etc., but without the help of paypal.  Learn your rights and cover your back side.

[branchard]

I must admit I was somewhat surprised the first time I found out that "Seller Protection" is not really any protection at all. I think Paypal needs to do away with that term entirely. However, in most Buyer/Seller transactions, By Law it is the responsibility of the merchant, (or seller), to deliver the merchandise to the buyer in the condition promised by the merchant at the time of sale. This means all sellers are responsible for items lost or damaged in transit. 

Paypal cannot refuse to refund a buyer's payment unless we can prove that the package was delivered. PP shipping offers delivery confirmation for $.19. I have read a complaint that stated, "Buyer received the item in perfect condition, used it for 30 days, damaged it, then filed a claim". Seriously, know one knows something like that for a fact. I also read, "Buyer claims item is damaged, then gets to keep the item and gets a full refund". I have had some less than scrupulous buyers file such claims. Paypal has NEVER allowed them to receive a refund from me without first returning the item at their expense. Now, if you look at this from the most pessimistic point of veiw, a disgruntled buyer could hit a perfectly new item with a hammer and then pay to ship it back to you and get refunded...but WHY?

I have a Very "Buyer-Friendly" return policy. I often get sketchy buyers trying to con or pressure me into just giving them a refund without returning the item. I respond by telling them I will gladly refund their money, but I need to get the damaged item back, so that I might try to recover my investment from my supplier. If they really did get an item that was damaged in transit, they will send it back. And it IS my responsibility to refund their money. If it is a fraudulent buyer, someone lying to get free stuff, there is nothing in it for them. They don't come out ahead unless I agree to let them keep the "damaged" item AND give a refund. Paypal will NOT force you to do that.

As Far As Having A "No Return" Policy. It is Just Bad Business. When I shop online, I know that there is no such thing. It's an illusion. As a buyer, if I receive an item that is "Not as described" or "Damaged in Transit", I am much more willing to find an arrangement with the seller that minimizes his/her loss, if that seller is willing to take responsibility. As a Seller, having a liberal return policy, does occasionally draw some fraudulent buyers, but much more often, it draws good buyers who deeply appreciate my willingness to take "the worry of being cheated" out of the picture. I get return business, great feedback, and even referrals. "NO RETURNS" scares your profits away.

[PayPal_Jason]

Hi sweetpea-

A buyer that pays through PayPal does not lose the rights they have to dispute a transaction with their credit card company.  That's part of our User Agreement and one of the rules that lets account holders add those cards to PayPal accounts.  And if a buyer does a chargeback to their credit card, we have to immediately reimburse that credit card company since our name is on the charge. 

You can learn about chargebacks and the seller protection policy in the Safer Selling link in the PayPal Security Center.  Additionally, if you've met the Seller Protection Policy criteria, a buyer should not wind up with both your item and their money back.  We hold the funds if a buyer disputes the transaction, but the documentation we get from you means that those funds could be returned once the investigation is completed.

Keep in mind that a buyer isn't obligated to be happy with a purchase, be that from PayPal or any business...that's why stores have return counters. 

There's not a right answer to this, but since this is a community forum, what are other community members' thoughts on No Return policies?  Do they work for your business?  Do you ever make exceptions?  How do you handle a dissatisfied customer if they approach you regardless of your returns policy? 

Thanks,

Jason

[TS]

I'm yet another Ebay Power Seller dissatisfied with Paypal's supposed "Seller Protection."  When asking the question to Paypal, "How am I protected when the buyer is verified and I ship via the buyer's request for least expensive shipping?" The answers we receive are "we are shipping at our own risk" or we "are protected when we provide tracking via the postal method used."  Okay, so Paypal isn't protecting anyone - I'm either protecting myself or the postal service is providing protection.

  What happens when half the business you do is International and the Postal Service will not track the package?  Why does Paypal not protect the Seller against any losses?  We, the Seller, are doing huge amounts of business with Paypal - one would think Paypal would want to protect the Seller's against criminal activity from foreign business or possible loss/stolen packages.  Instead, Paypal just takes the "word" of the buyer, with no actual proof the buyer did not receive the package, and removes the funds from the Seller's account.  Now the Seller is out both the merchandise, the shipping fees, and the funds.  Nice Paypal.  Way to send your high volume Sellers out seeking their own forms of payment to avoid using you! 

[Disappointeddad]

 have been both an Ebay seller and Paypal user for years and was very disappointed last night to find out money had been placed on hold in my account from a bank chargeback. The items were paid for on December 3rd, and get this the buyer left positive feedback on December 10th saying they loved the items. Now Paypal is holding my money from me. Their policy states, do not ship until payment is completed, I shipped after it showed complete. They say don't ship unless buyer is verified. Buyer is verified. Buyer has the items, is happy with the transaction, and I'm out my costs, shipping costs and profit. I'm just a single Dad trying to earn some extra cash for Christmas, now it looks like it will be tighter than I thought.

Disappointeddad

[unknown]

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@PayPal_Jason wrote:

Hi sweetpea-

Keep in mind that a buyer isn't obligated to be happy with a purchase, be that from PayPal or any business...that's why stores have return counters. 

There's not a right answer to this, but since this is a community forum, what are other community members' thoughts on No Return policies?  Do they work for your business?  Do you ever make exceptions?  How do you handle a dissatisfied customer if they approach you regardless of your returns policy? 

Thanks,

Jason

---

You are correct that stores have return policies and some of those policies are there are no returns, exchanges, or implied warraanties: item is sold as is.  Paypal completely disregards a sellers return policy when a buyer cries foul, even though the seller did everything correctly.  This is not seller protection but fear that the buyer will go to thier bank and reequest a chargeback, so Paypal sides with the buyer.  Well what if sellers who have had wrongful refunds given back to the buyer, go the credit card/bank and dispute the monies that Paypal takes from them to refund to a buyer?

I'm clearly venting because when a buyer has a product for almost a month, uses it and damges it and them files a SNAD and saying that they received it damaged, Paypal sides with them!!!  This user has not used Ebay/Paypal in maybe over a year, where I have bought and sold through Ebay/Paypal for almost 10 years now. Paypal says they did an investigation but no additional information was requested from me, for example pictures of the product right before it shipped, tracking information to see if any additional notes were made about the condition of the package, nothing.  Looking at a simple dispute by a buyer and a lenghty explanation from the seller doesn't constitute an investigation. The funny thing is that Paypal sends an email with this statement:  "The merchandise will be in the same condition as when the buyer received it...".  That is clearly incorrect and false.  The product was undamaged when it shipped and is now damaged and being sent back.   I will seek help in fighting this one even if I have to take someone to court.

To answer your questions above:

- What are other community members' thoughts on No Return policies? 

Please tell me that you are kidding here?  They are furious that Paypal doesn't take into account that an Ebay listing is a bidding contract between a seller and a buyer.  That Paypal will just just disregard the fact that their listings says  there are no returns, no exchanges, or no warranties: item is sold as is, jsut for the simple fact they fear bank chargebacks.  That's like Paypal saying that a bidding contract between 2 parties is null and void when a buyer disputes a transaction.  If that is the case, then a court system can render Paypal's User agreement null and void, since it in itself is a binding agreement between 2 parties.  Please do me favor and see what other sellers are saying by just googling these key words: "Paypal no seller protection".  You will see what othersellers (and the community) think of Paypal's seller protection.  And keep in mind that these are actual people who have experienced horrors with Paypal and are not just people speculating.

Do they work for your business?  Do you ever make exceptions?  How do you handle a dissatisfied customer if they approach you regardless of your returns policy?

If I had a true store/business, I would expect customers to adibe by my return policy, period.  For exceptions, the product in question is bought to store for visual examination, so at least I can see if it has been used or warrants any kind of refund.  Paypal's investigation doesn't do this.  You are clearly taking the words of someone and not examining the product in question.  I know of many stores/businesses that clearly mark on signs No Returns/No exchanges, and even no warranties.  And you know what, I walk right out because I know that that is their policy and I will honor that, I will just go somewhere else to purchase my products.  So you see, buyers have to honor that and know what they are buying before they buy it.  They need to ask themselves, What if this doesn't fit, or is the wrong thing?  do I want to take that chanceor that risk?  And if they do, they are bound to the terms of the store/business, just like they should be with ebay auctions.  I remember a time when Ebay use to say that an auction listing is a binding contract. Does Paypal, who is owned by Ebay, not believe the same policy?  If you do, then clearly you are not showing that to the numerous and I mean numerous sellers that are getting burned by buyers who fraudently return items and hide behind your somewhat 100% money back gaurantee (aka buyer protection regardless of seller's  return policy).

I would love to see your response and hope that this discussion continues on, because I feel that maybe "burned" sellers would love to see Paypal's take on the so-called seller protection (that really isn't there).

[PROSHOP]

Paypal is a bunch of liars!  There is NO SELLER PROTECTION whatsoever.... they advertise there is, but when it comes down to it they will take your money, and the buyer gets to keep the product, AND paypal will charge you a $10 fee.  You arent really interested in what other people think... nice saying that however... it makes people think you care... which you dont.

Paypal should be ashamed!

[Bama72]

THERE IS NO SELLER PROTECTION THROUGH PAYPAL. If anyone tells you it is they are a bunch of freakin liers. I would like to explain. I do not sell hardly at all on ebay. I am mostly a buyer a have been with ebay since it was started. I still have a 100% feedback today. I recently sold a laptop that belong to me. It was a 2 year old Toshiba. I sold it to a buyrer in Fla. The laptop was in great shape but it is used. I listed everything about it. The buyrer bought the laptop and paid for it through paypal. The buyer kept the laptop for more than 1 month using it and then all of a sudden did not want it  becuase they found something better. They claim it overheated and melted. My money was removed from my paypal account and given back to the seller. I filed a appeal to paypal at least 3 times. Finally the laptop was returned to me and it was melted on the outside of the case only. I took it as per paypal requeted to a police station, a Toshiba dealer and a indepent dealer to have it look ed at. All of the them came back with writtem  and signed documents that the laptop was melted on the outside ofthe case by a outside force like a heater or soldering gun. The laptop still runs fine. I sent in all the paper work as per there request and the claims appealer name Amanda the itch♠ turned me down the 3rd time and said this case is closed. She propably is some type of kin to the buyer. I do not like to loose money espically 279.00 dollars but it is a crock when you do as they asked and it even cost me another 45.00 dollars to have the laptop took apart and examine and now I am out this. I would never ever be a seller on Ebay with Paypal as my money source with this new rule they have that  it does not matter what the buyer does to your product all they have to say IS IT IS NOT AS DESCRIBED.  I would love for someone higher thatn the appeal clerk that they have to read this and try to explain to me what is fair about this. Paypal stick it in your ear.