Buyer Protection loophole - abusive usage of Proofs of Delivery

[Sam_Maxi]

I have recently had a very disappointing experience with PayPal.
I am upset as well as deeply disappointed, but am more concerned that the same thing would happen to other people.

I will explain the concern with a hypothetical example.

Let's say I have a favourite online shop, and I make purchases on regular bases through PayPal.
So far, I have placed 19 orders, and they have all arrived.
However, my 20th order does not arrive.
I open an "Item not received" claim.
However, the online shop has 19 valid tracking information (tracking IDs and proofs of delivery) from all of my previous orders, and chooses to supply one of those tracking numbers to PayPal.
Now, it looks like they have delivered the goods, although my 20th order is yet to arrive.

I informed this to PayPal, and let them know that the tracking number supplied is from my previous orders, and I still have not received the goods for the transaction in dispute (i.e. the 20th order).

However, PayPal rules in the seller's favour, because "the tracking number is "valid".
PayPal does not bother to look into my explanation of where the tracking information came from (i.e. my previous orders).

Does this sound fair?

The Customer service team informed me that there is nothing they can do - as "surely you understand" - there is no way of proving which goods went with which transaction.

So - shouldn't there be total of 20 proofs of delivery, for all 20 orders?
According to PayPal, not necessary, as the shop could have shipped goods combined.

And if I wanted all 20 transactions investigated, apparently I "should have opened 20 disputes"!
Of course the dispute period has passed for past orders, and I am unable to do so.
That aside, why would I open 20 disputes when 19 of them were received?

I have completely lost faith in PayPal after my latest experience.
Up until now, whenever there is an option of paying with PayPal, I have always chosen to pay with PayPal.
However, from now on I will avoid using PayPal as much as possible - banks' protection scheme is better and more thorough.

If a member of staff from PayPal reads this, please reconsider the current protocol you have regarding the Proof of Delivery.
There is a massive loophole in your so called system.

[classy-diva]

Unfortunately there is no answer to this, you opened one dispute sufficient tracking was given to show receipt. You could however liaise with the online shop and advise that the tracking given was for a previously purchased item. You could if you funded your payment via a credit/debit card contact your card provider and enquire about a chargeback. Some not all will assist but generally only if the purchase was in excess of £100.00 (credit cards).

[Sam_Maxi]

Thank you for your reply.
Unfortunately, most of the banks will not deal with any transactions processed via PayPal (they leave it up to PayPal).

Does this mean PayPal's Buyer Protection in essence is only effective if the purchase is one-off, or the purchases are sufficiently apart in time-frame?

I feel confident that this will happen again in future if I continue to use PayPal.
Proof of Delivery means nothing in cases like this; it just means "a" delivery was made to my address, does not mean it was "the" delivery I am still waiting to arrive.

The payment was for over £1,200...
Absolutely guttered that this has happened and disgusted that PayPal is not taking it seriously.

As long as this loophole in Buyer Protection exists, I will not use PayPal unless absolutely necessary.
PayPal-users should be alerted about the limitation of the so called "Protection" PayPal offers to buyers...

[PayPal_john]

You should be able to change the claim to Significantly Not as Described? You ordered a number of items and they didn't all arrive, a partial order is considered Significantly Not as Described. Contact customer service again and request that they change the case. I'm very surprised that they did not inform you about this.

[Sam_Maxi]

Thank you for your reply.

However, it appears that there is nothing I can do - the claim is closed in the seller's favour, and although I appealed twice, I was rejected both times.

Rejection messages read:

I have reviewed your account and it shows that this claim is now closed
because the seller provided us with valid ‘Proof of Delivery’ which
confirms that the item has been delivered to your address.

We are unable to re-open this claim as we have had to accept the
tracking information the seller has provided.

It looks like an automated reply, and I am dubious as to whether my appeal was actually read by someone.

I have spoken to four customer service representatives, and they all told me the same thing; if the seller provides a valid Proof of Delivery, it proves that the goods were delivered, ergo closed in the seller's favour.
Does not matter where the Proof of Delivery comes from, does not matter that I still have not received the goods in question.

I however did ask whether I was able to change the claim to "Significantly Not as Described" claim. If the seller was to argue they have shipped orders together, then I can argue that certain goods are missing.
The customer service informed me that in order to do that, I need to dispute all transactions I have had with the seller.
Of course this cannot be done, dispute periods for the past transactions are long passed (I had no reason to dispute them).

Surely there is something that can be done?

For example, if the parcels were carried by courier, there should be a dispatch note.
Aside from the tracking number, dispatch notes would contain information such as the weights and the measurements of the parcels.

The parcel information should always correspond with the purchased goods - for example, a tire wheel is purchased, but the seller provides the tracking information of the previous order, which contained bolts & nuts.

It would be easy to see that the tracking information provided is for the bots & nuts and not for the wheel, deducting from the weight and sizes of the parcel?

I explained this to PayPal, but they kept on saying the same thing over and over again, a valid Proof of Delivery is supplied, therefore it's all over.
As I mentioned before, it may be "a" Proof of Delivery, but not necessarily "the" Proof of Delivery.

Surely this "One Proof of Delivery Proves Everything" system is flawed?

[PayPal_john]

can I ask how far apart your orders were with this seller? If the seller only sent the first item then the tracking would reflect the dates of the first item?

[Sam_Maxi]

Thank you for your reply and apologies for delay in response.
We have been forced to look into an arrangement with a Small Claims Court after PayPal claim has failed us.

To answer your question, the two orders in question are not apart enough.
I still do not understand why PayPal could not ask the seller to provide 2 Proofs of Delivery for 2 orders, and if the seller claims they shipped goods combined, then I could have changed the claim to significantly not as described (i.e. the entire order missing from allegedly combined shipment).

As I have mentioned in my previous posts, as soon as I realised where the Proof of Delivery came from, I reported to PayPal and urged them to look into the matter in more depth.
PayPal confirmed that they will get in touch with the seller and question whether the Proof of Delivery was from the other order.

After the claim was closed in the seller's favour, I found out that PayPal only sent one email requesting the seller to reply and confirm the detail of the Proof of Delivery.
PayPal then gave the seller mere 3 days to reply.
The seller did not reply, and still then, PayPal ruled in the seller's favour.
That just sounds lazy to me.

Your customer service representatives repeatedly told me that there was nothing they could have done, one Proof of Delivery was provided, and that was enough for PayPal.
Of course they could have done more, they just wouldn't.

I then informed the customer service that I wish to file a formal complaint regarding the way this claim was handled.

They said that PayPal does not have a department to deal with such complaints. Can this be true?

I was looking at the US PayPal's forum, and saw a case exactly like mine, where the seller gave tracking information of other order and PayPal ruled in the seller's favour, no questions asked.

Shouldn't there be a protocol to prevent this kind of failures from happening?

[PayPal_david]

Hi Sam_Maxi,

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you.

I think that it is very strange that you were advised by agents that the status of the case cant be changed. If you have received one order and the second order does not arrive or is not as described, we should be able to investigate them as two different cases and depending on the timeframe between the two transactions, we may be able to request two different tracking numbers from your seller.

If let's say for example you made the two payments on the same day or within 2 days or so of each other, we may be able to accept one tracking number for both transactions as some sellers dont post their items for 2 to 3 days after a payment has been received. This would be the reason why but if you have only received one of the orders or one of the orders is not as described, we should be able to investigate this for you.

In regards to the request that would have been sent to your seller. This may have been sent to your seller and there is a standard three day timeframe for either party to respond to dispute enquiries i'm afraid. The only way that this would be extended is when documentation is requested from either party.

I understand your frustration in regards to being advised by representatives that there was no department in PayPal that deal with complaint's. You can make a formal complaint against PayPal on the Contact Us screen by clicking on the link that would be in the Email Us section.

I can only advise that you try and call PayPal directly so that we can try and help you further.

David.

[EQUIPARGE]

Also told that there is no customer complaint service after being abused by a customer service representative. They say they record the calls .I await with baited breath to explain this away unless they keep to form and dont bother to deal with genuine customer complaints and carry on supporting fraudulant sellers without investigating and putting blocks on there accounts. I guess it keeps the customer service department in jobs...lol...good luck with your claim . I just wish paypal make it easierto discuss such matters. They are quick to take our money, slow to support genuine good customers.