Sick of Paypal.

[sameersaccounts]

Paypal promotes buyer fraud. No protection or regard for the seller.

[Raveninred]

---

@daugherty001 wrote:

i sold 500 dollars in my property

and someone got my personal and credit card info off ebay and opened 10 accounts in my name and ebay or pay pal

did not inform me of this

so they closed my account on ebay and pay pal

now i am sitting with over 200 dollars in a account in pay pal

and was informed that the limits on my account will never be fixed by pay pal

and they dont want to offer anymore services to me

and this was 2 months ago

my accout is this frozen with 232 dollars in it and was informed that i might be able to withdraw

the money in 180 days

all my property is being used by the people that bought it and i am having to sue pay pal

for 300 dollars

informed that i will have to wait 180 days to see if anyone whats to return anything they have used

is anyone has this problem email me ok

i had 38 people give me good feed back  on all 38 items i sold to them

burn bay and scam pal is robbing people daily and yes there is something we as the sellers can do about it

sue them its the new age american way

all we need is more people to start the paper work so contact me

any they do not protect you or ebay or pay pal

they do the right thing look out for there self

so to all the people that are crying about waiting 21 days to get payed 

well you got the money

how about getting your info robed from you them your money on pay pal held

because they protected you as there great customer like they say

please sell on amazon they pay you all the money you earn asap

stay away from companys that use small print

---

daugherty001

I have just a couple of comments - from the rambling nature of your post, I think I can tell that you're pretty upset. But a couple of the things you say - they're not true.

For instance - no one can get your credit card information off eBay. eBay does not store your financial information. So if someone got your financial information, they didn't get it off eBay.

Secondly, eBay and/or PayPal would not allow anyone to open 10 different separate accounts with the same financial information without looking into the matter further. It would send up immediate red flags. I know this because it was a big biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig deal a couple of years ago and there was a huuuuuuuuge investigation into it. And they disallowed multiple accounts with the same financial information.

And then, you say they closed YOUR account? Did they close the OTHER accounts?

Where did this $200 that you say is "sitting" in PayPal come from? You say it's sitting in "an" account. Would that be your account, or one of the false accounts? And PayPal informed you they will NEVER fix this for you? I call BS. You were informed the limits will NEVER be fixed? I call BS again. PayPal puts limitations on accounts for 180 days. Only.

If they don't want to offer services to you anymore, it means they may be afraid you are involved with the bogus accounts. But if you can prove that your information was stolen (say by a police report of identity theft and an affit davit to your credit card company that you never made any charges), PayPal would be working hand-in-hand with you to resolve this situation in UNDER 180 days.

How new is your original account with PayPal? I mean, how long have you been using PayPal? This would figure in how much they would believe your story - without the paperwork. WITH the paperwork, they would be johnny-on-the-spot to help you clear this up. You say it was "2 months ago" that PayPal put a hold an your account, and yet you have done NOTHING to help clear up this misunderstanding for 60 days (one-third the time you're funds have been on hold), yet you're willing to SUE PayPal?

I call BS again. A person who was honest in their dealings would be entirely ANXIOUS to clear this up and clear their financial history. Unless you're 12 and you're not thinking ahead to how this will affect your financial future. Ever want to buy a car? A Motorcycle? A House? This is going to look AWFUL, and you'll have to clean it up BEFORE you'll ever be able to buy those things ANYWAY. Even if you sue. Because if you SUE, you're going to lose. And you're going to LOSE because you're going to be LAUGHED OUT OF COURT because your facts do not support your claims.

First you say PayPal won't help you, then you say you "might" be able to get your money in 180 days and now it's $232 dollars. So you're going to SUE PayPal for $300. Do you have any idea how much it costs to sue someone? Hint: MORE than $300. And you'll lose, so don't think you're goiong to reclaim any court fees, either. And then there are your lawyer fees, unless you think you're going to represent yourself, which - just me to you - NOT A GOOD IDEA.

And I LOVE your slogan: sue them its the new age american way. Yeah, nothing like personal accountability. What are you - 12? Everything is someone else's fault so THEY should pay? Why not go after the people who STOLE your INFO? That's not PAYPAL's fault, nor eBAY's. Obviously your security **bleep** and you need to file identity theft papers and change your information. How about you be an adult and step up and do that FIRST.

You're so willing to start paperwork against PayPal and eBay but not against the thieves who robbed you.

Where IS your sense of logic? Oh, I forgot. It's on hold for 180 days. Oooh, sorry, only 120 now.

Please, take a look at the real problem here - your financial information has been compromised. It's not eBay's fault. It's not PayPal's fault. It's YOUR fault. Do something about it rather than blame everyone else about it.

Grow up. Gah.

Raven

[Raveninred]

one tiny thing more...

If you're serious and you want to start a Cass Action Suite *cough*, know you have to have 200 people with the EXACT same problem as you in your Suite *cough*.

Yep, 200 other people whose financial information was stolen from eBay and used to set up ten new accounts on PayPal and eBay.

And then PayPal didn't believe them. And they didn't do anything to try to fix it for 60 days, even though there is supposedly money sitting in *some* account. And PayPal told them they would Never work with them but then later said maybe they would after 180 days but they still didn't do anything for 60 days. Juuuuuust sat there.

Yeah. Find 200 other people who did that.

And then start a Class Action Suite. *ahem*

[martinpittaway]

Raven.

Are you employed by either eBay or Paypal? Some of your statements are so crass!

Have you read eBay seller protection?

Do a search in eBay help for seller protection. The results are dominated by eBay buyer protection. And when you do get to Seller protection FAQ's, quite frankly they do not relate to what actually happens in the real world of eBay and Paypal.

Go read Paypal small print in the user agreement. Where does it explain to a new seller that the funds they are expecting to receive are going to be placed on hold for 21 days or until the eBay buyer leaves positive feedback.

And what about communication between eBay and Paypal over a dispute?

I received a blackmail extortion message sent through eBay. But! Because the blackmailing buyer had lodged the dispute with Paypal, Paypal held the funds. 

eBay accepted the extortion email and cancelled the buyers account. Paypal accepted the Buyers blackmail claim and issued a refund.

Only after threatening to get the police involved did I get some cooperation.

More to the point. What are Paypal doing with all the money they are holding? Our money! Sellers money. Withdrawn from Buyers bank accounts, waiting to be paid into sellers bank accounts.

It's crap that Paypal call it e money. Electronic or not it's still currency. Dollars, Sterling, Euro's whatever. This is still real money handed over by buyers, NOT being paid to sellers for whatever the reason. What are Paypal doing with all that money? There for sure aint sitting on it. They are using it to make more money.

And then lets look at the dispute procedures.

Who is managing Buyers Expectations.? It should be eBay as eBay are providing the selling tool. But eBay demand the seller takes all the crap.

I live 30 miles from my post service. I have to drive and it takes me at least an hour. So I think it only right and proper that I charge for my time as well as the gas that I've used too. But because my buyers think I've overcharged for postage and say so with the feedback stars, my seller performance (100% positive feedback), takes a hit and the next I know is that eBay are telling me my seller performance is below their requirements and eBay threaten me with restricting my account if I don't do something about it.

Now what do I do? Do I lose money on Postage? I can't remain competitive on eBay if I put the price of my product up to cover the loss incurred getting the goods to the post. How do I manage my buyers expectations of what is a reasonable postage cost?

So Raveninred. Stop giving out crass advice and get real about what you are saying. There's a whole lot about eBay and Paypal you have clearly never experienced first hand or been on the receiving end of.

Sellers Protection Policy is worthless as everything is weighted to the buyer. Feedback scores are controlled by Buyers. And who is it who uses the scores? eBay on their seller dashboard.

Daugherty001. GO FOR IT. YOU WILL SOON FIND YOUR ADDITIONAL 199 SELLERS WHO WILL JOIN YOU. I WOULD FOR 1 IF I LIVED IN THE STATES.

[Raveninred]

Oh. Soft skinned? I'm sorry if I come across as crass but this is a real problem with the US today.

I loathe how the American public (and obviously you're not am American) feels that they have every "right" in the world to solve problems they themselves caused or that they themselves could solve by suing someone else for their misery. A dented bumper = grevious bodily harm. $200 which this poster has done nothing to solve for himself for over 60 days but whine & feel sorry for himself & make accusations with a lot of conflicting information, information that does not add up (if you read his presentation of the facts), & that he doesn't want to fix, he just wants money.

I really despise this about the lazy American public. Do I work for PP - I thank my stars every day I do not when I read these boards. They take so much flack from people who are like "rah, yah, sue them!" when if you look at the problem logically, there is a) either a way to solve the problem with both sides ending up happy, or b) a way to find out what went wrong so possibly the problem might never occur again & you could learn a lot about the highly evolved scams that are out there (and they are brill at copying PP's own mails, forms, everything to.the.letter. and PP gets the blame for it.)  So, no, I don't work for PP. But I sure am going to defend someone (even if it's a company) when I see someone blatantly setting out to rip someone off & trying to get others to do the same! So, yeah, in that case there where you called me crass - I called BS. A LOT. Because it WAS BS. A LOT.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I have read eBay Seller protection, as I have had the fortune to Sell some items on eBay before  - just a some First Edition books, & video games, a projector for a video room & the screen, & a few other things. At the time when I was selling, there were all these fake accounts from out of the country who would bid & then send pushy mails from Fake-PP. I Ignored them, and eBay always told me the sales were fake & reinstated the sale. Without me having to do much. The fake PP threats still came, but I never clicked on their links, went to PP on my own, & saw they were BS.

Like it was PERSONAL - they wouldn't leave my auctions alone, kept bid/buying them, &FakePP threatening me. eBay always reinstated the sale without me having to do a thing. I finally stopped selling for a week, & when I re-listed, it was like eBay had cleaned house. Everyone was a cool, verified buyer. They bought, paid right away, I shipped right away, everyone was happy, happy, happy.

Now, I live in a canyon in California. Which means in order to get to my nearest mail-station, I have to drive up a windy two-lane road on top of a steep hill with madmen driving expensive cars down it at 1,000mph. In my lane half the time.  Takes me a while to get there. But I promised shipping within 1-2 days of sale, so I get my royal patootie up & over to the mail station. I have products here at home: envelopes, boxes, insurance slips, customer signature slips (In the US, you can request these things in BULK from the USPS site) & when I get to the mail center, I pay for whatever I am using - if the customer purchased insurance, I always pay for customer signature upon receipt : I build that in as part of the shipping cost. I hate getting my lazy butt into the car, I hate boxing everything up, I hate dragging everything into the mail shop, but it is SO worth it when I get those comments that people are surprised & happy that it & and arrived faster than they expected & in great condition.

Now here's the thing - when I pay for an auction: my funds aren't held for 21 days; seller gets them automatically. Maybe that's because I have been on PP for such a long time, maybe that is because I have more than 1 form of payment connected to PP so if 1 source is not available there are several more ready to absorb the costs. But - & here's the BIG thing:  ALL my Sellers comment on how FAST they get paid. When I do an auction, I generally look for the "buy it now" button. (I hate to do that outbidding at the last moment thing.) And almost all the comments are like "WOW, FAST PAYMENT!! COME BACK ANYTIME!!!"

Now, please understand, I am defnitely NOT saying this to toot my own horn. I'm just trying to make a point. If a Seller is new, & hasn't established a history with PP, yes, I can understand they may have to jump through some hoops until they become known as a trusted Seller. I understand this can be a big, huge hassle. I see some ways around this, though. A notice, maybe, in the auction in bold stating: YOU WILL RECEIVE YOUR PACKAGE WITH A SIGNATURE REQUIRED NOTICE. IF YOU SIGN THIS NOTICE, YOU WILL BE INDICATING YOUR RECEIPT OF ITEM IN ACCORDANCE WITH FEDERAL POSTAL LAW. BECAUSE SIGNATURE RECEIPT CAN BE TRACKED, YOUR FEEDBACK FOR ITEM WILL BE DUE ON E-BAY WITHIN HOURS. IF FEEDBACK IS NOT RECEIVED - THEREBY RELEASING FUNDS THROUGH PAYPAL - A DISPUTE WILL BE LODGED AGAINST YOUR E-BAY ACCOUNT SHOWING YOUR STATED ACCEPTANCE OF THESE TERMS, & ANOTHER DISPUTE WILL BE OPENED WITH PAYPAL USING FEDERAL NOTICES AS EVIDENCE AND YOUR MAILS AS FURTHER EVIDENCE OF ATTEMPTED FRAUD. THE ADDRESS YOU USED WILL BE CITED IN A FRAUD INVESTIGATION WITH (THE CREDIT CARD YOU USE FOR PAY PAL OR THE BANK ACCOUNT - COS IT'S A FELONY). IF YOU BID ON THIS ITEM, IT MEANS ACCEPTANCE OF THESE TERMS.

Or something like that. Cause in the States, it is fraud on your bank account or your cc - not just PP. Folks got to learn this. Sometimes PP's hands are tied, & the best thing you can do is go to your bank & open a fraud investigation - not against PP, but the person who ripped you off. PayPal didn't steal your money; see this is what really pi - er, freaks me out. The person who has your item...& your money....isn't PP. It's the buyer who has your item....& your money. PP is like a Money Exchange service; like an escrow service. They'll hold on to it until they're sure everyone who is supposed to have something does.

NOW: to address your situation: You received a blackmail extortion letter through eBay, and eBay handled it correctly. And then PP didn't quite understand and they fall on the side of the blackmailer. Okay - that's a valid problem. And one you shouldn't have given up on, because you're completely in the right.  I don't know how much time has passed, but if it's fairly recently: I wouldn't let this one go. Kick it up a notch with the Cust. Serv. group. If you've been a member for a time, you'd have a decent history with them, & they'd be aware of your account. Log in to your account & in the upper right corner (this is the US site, I am not sure of UK site but I'm guessing it's same), there is a hotlink to "HELP"; click there & it will lead you to a page w/a bunch of links to problems. I suggest  "Claims and Disputes" button, & then when it shows you the options, pick one - in your case I clicked "Report a Problem" & then "I have a problem with an eBay Transaction."

Once there IGNORE the stuff on the right - you've already solved it with eBay. What you're looking for is a link on the left that says "Contact us by email or by phone". Ignore the one that says "Talk to our Service Rep Sarah" - that's just a bot that can answer simple questions - you want a live person!! This will lead you to another page - I know, but you're almost there so hang on. The new page willl have a bar for entering a question, a bunch of buttons as to WHY you're trying to contact - again, I suggest DISPUTES/CLAIMS, and then a list down the left side that offers Quick Answers, Chat With Sarah (bot), Ask the Community (you're already here) , CALL US, E-mail us, Developer Support. IMHO, Don't use the e-mail. I tried that and it was taking a little too long, so I tried the "CALL US". It gives you a WEB PIN  & phone # which is attached to your account good for 60 minutes. Meaning if you call in the next 60 min & use this WEB PIN, they'll be able to identify you &  your account like WHAMMO!

Like I said, if the transaction was that recent, & you use that webpin, & you still have that blackmail e-mail, I'll bet you would get someone sympathetic to your case. And if you feel you're not being taken seriously enough, ask to speak to a supervisor because you feel it's that important and you really need some resolution in this. Let them know that eBay resolved the matter in your favor, that you never received the item back, that you have mail documentation (I assume) that they received the item... LIke I said, I don't know how long ago it was, but no doors are ever closed. Even if they say only 45 days, if eBay resolved in your favor, tell them you'd really really appreciate it if they took another look at the matter, and do so politely because, after all, they're just a company - they don't know you or the other person, they didn't see nor hear what happened, & maybe they just need to take a second look - It can't hurt, & all it could do is maybe help.

To your other question: what are (sic) PP doing with all the money they are holding? Our money! Sellers money. Withdrawn from Buyers bank accounts, waiting to be paid into sellers bank accounts. It's crap that PP call it e money. Electronic or not it's still currency. Dollars, Sterling, Euro's whatever. This is still real money handed over by buyers, NOT being paid to sellers for whatever the reason. What are (sic) PP doing with all that money? There (sic) for sure aint (sic) sitting on it. They are using it to make more money.

Ah. Well maybe partly true, but not in the way you think. As I said, PP is more like an escrow fund, a money clearing house. The money from a sale is withdrawn from a Buyer's account UPON THE BUYER'S REQUEST. At this point, it IS e-money - they don't actually handle dollars & cents - it's all virtual transactions in dollars, sterling, Euros, whatever. Of course it's all real, but it is all virtual. It's paid to the SELLER upon successful completion of Sale. You seem to think they're NOT paying EVERYBODY. Sorry, that is wrong. In a successful transaction, while the money is in PP's accounts awaiting completion of sale, it is accruing interest. When the Sale is completed, the Seller receives his money, PP holds on to the interest they earned during the course of the sale. So yeah - they ARE using it to earn more money. Did you think this was a business that did this out of the kindness of it's heart? They're in this to provide a service, yes, but also TO MAKE MONEY!!! This is how PP is a model of financial success in the internet/virtual world. This is one of the reasons they have so many strict rules and protections in place - they have to be absolutely clear and transparent about where their funds come from, how they earned them, what kinds of companies & individuals they are dealing with on a day-to-day basis in order to be compliant with all banking laws here in the US & Internationally.

So, yeah, PP can be sticklers, but they're protecting you. And also protecting themselves. They're a business that people try to scam every single minute of every single day. There are articles in the New York Times this week about the sopistication of the thieves preying on PP & people who use PP. It's not just about photoshopping copies of their mail anymore...it's gone way beyond. And PP is "paying" for these thieves & what they're doing, and yeah, I feel bad for the company, because they've provided a wonderful service for people, not just on eBay but elsewhere on the net in shopping for (well, for me for like 9 years) and when I have a problem, I communicate with them, not bi - er, whinge about it. I find out the best way to go about addressing the problem, if others ever had the problem, if their solutions would work if applied to me or if i think I might know a better way. But they've never stolen from me. And they've always - always - treated me with courtesy & respect. Because that's how I start the conversation with them - not by going on the attack.

This comment: Who is managing Buyers Expectations.? It should be eBay as eBay are providing the selling tool. But eBay demand the seller takes all the crap.

What the heck does it have to do with this conversation? it has NOTHING to do with PP. So why bring it up? If you have a problem with eBay, talk to eBay. Even if PP & eBay are owned by the same company, they are run by entirely separate divisions, & those divisions are completely separate subsidiaries & THEY DON'T TALK AT A MONDAY MORNING WEEKLY MEETING OVER DOUGHNUTS ABOUT SO-&-SO & Martinpittaway's problems & how they can **bleep** them over. They don't communicate like that. The world just doesn't work like that. It's not a conspiracy to **bleep** you over. People may not know the facts of your case: it's up to YOU to educate them.

If it takes you an hour to drive 30 miles: that just seems like a lot, but then again - twists and turns in my canyon take an extra lot of amount of time, so I guess I can understand. But bi - er, complaining about buyers because you don't go to the post office often enough is NOT PP's fault.

So, martinpittaway, I understand you have a certain level of frustration because you're getting less than stellar feedback because you're not able to get to the post often enough. Do you outline that in your Auctions so it's CRYSTAL clear to the buyers?  

Sorry if you think me being honest to someone who CLEARLY wasn't giving the whole story was what you considered "crass". Honesty often is confused with brutality, cruelty, meanness, crassness...but it's honesty nonetheless. The post I was answering was full of holes & half-truths & if you didn't like the honest answers, then you don't have a full apology - I just can't do that because that person deserved to know that his story wasn't going to fly because it was that transparent. And the litigation-happy American public policy is truly ridiculous, & NO ONE is going to be able to tell THAT SAME STORY 200 times in order to make a "Class Order Suite" *aaaaaah-BS* Excuse me. Allergies and all.

I'll apologise if you thought the way I imparted the message was a little harsh, but I truly am tired of hearing people who do nothing to better their own situation - like that person, who just sat there for 60 days & did nothing to try to fix the situation &  only thought about suing to get MORE than the money owed him. I mean, that's just friggin' horrible, lazy, disingenuous, brash, CRASS, intolerable, cheeky, & slimy. And the whole story was like that.

And martinpittaway, I AM giving out REAL advice. I've given you some REAL VALUABLE advice above. Whether or not you chose to use it is up to you, but it is valid, real, usable advice a likely to help you. And please don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about - I'm no naive 17 year old who hasn't been doing this for a long time. Selling AND Buying, and dealing with Identity theft before, and I HAVE been involved in a true class action suit. And won. Because - well, we told the truth, no. 1. That was a large part of it. No. 2 - it wasn't a case where we could've done something about it ourselves if we'd just gotten up & DONE something instead of whining how it was someone else's fault. We'd exhausted every other option. That CLEARLY hasn't happened here. To either the original poster, or to you. So, thanks for your advice about not giving advice but, respectfully - I think I'll try to help where I can, because I'd hate to see others go through some of the things I've gone through, but I'm also going to call out when I see an obvious ploy.

YOU have a legitiamte problem, as you noted. You also have a not-so-legitimate thing about the postal service that could be handled by a line in your auctions. OR by simply GOING to the postal office & adding more for shipping (the facts of life - things are more expensive). So yeah - been on the receiving end, & experienced first hand. So, I appreciate your advice, but I respectfully decline.

Yeah, then this: 

Sellers Protection Policy is worthless as everything is weighted to the buyer. Feedback scores are controlled by Buyers. And who is it who uses the scores? eBay on their seller dashboard.

Again - totally NOT about PP so TOTALLY should not be discussed here - how about on eBay's discussion boards??? I mean, really - if you're that dissatisfied, you're more likely to find others on eBay than on PP. Kinda - makes - sense, donnit?

Martinpittaway, you seem like a rational person & you do sound like you have a legitimate beef about the blackmail thing - why not get that out of the way so you're not harboring this innate hatred of a company that does more for you than you know? Look at that small print again, & try reading it from the point of view of: what does this do FOR me? I bet you will be surprised when you change your vantagepoint. From both selling and buying.

And for the last time: Daugherty001. I wouldn't "go for it" if I were you. Your "Class Action Suite" needs 200 other people with the EXACT SAME experience as you. And I don't think you'll find 200 people willing to commit purgery over $300. And no respectable lawyer is going to handle this case because of the purgery. The Very.Obvious. Purgery. That has now been documented on the internet for everyone to see.

Raven - who does not work for PayPal, just hates it when people try to scam companies

[martinpittaway]

OK Raveinred.

What are the fundamental issues here?

Why are SO many sellers hacked off with eBay, AND Paypal?  Why do they feel that they have been **bleep**ed?

I tried to explain yesterday about....... Buyers Expectations and managing Buyer Expectations. In my opinion, neither eBay or Paypal manage either even though both expect sellers to adhere to their requirements and it's sellers who get penalised when things go wrong and it might not even be the seller who is at fault.

I'm going to give you some examples.

I am in the UK but will use $ Dollar currency values.

A female friend of mine who sells fashion clothing decided to try eBay. She spent a considerable amount of time and a $150 in listing fees.

The very first item that sold was a pair of trousers at $75. Cost to my friend $50 plus postage plus listing fees and then of course final valuation fees. She accepted Paypal who then took some more from her for the transaction. She had turned over stock and made a few dollars on top. Paypal were holding her money until the buyer left positive feedback but she had countered this into her thinking.

Everything appeared to have gone OK until the following Monday. The buyer suddenly complained that the goods were not as described.

My friend had used the exact description the manufacturers gave her. A description used in television advertising for the trousers. A description that was clearly in accordance with and approved by advertising rules and regulations.

But Paypal were telling her to communicate with the buyer. She did via the system and the buyer just continued to state that the goods were not as described.

This caused my friend a great deal of stress and so she withdrew all items from sale off eBay losing all her listing fees.

Eventually the trousers issue was escalated and Paypal found in the buyers favour instructing that the trousers be returned to my friend.

The trousers arrived back. NOW HERE'S THE WORST!

These female  trousers had been worn, without underwear! The wearer had vomited over them and they were torn.

My friend took pictures of the trousers and complained to Paypal. Paypal ignored her and so she tried the Paypal appeals procedure. Paypal STILL found for the buyer.

I will leave you to think about how my friend feels about eBay and Paypal. Suffice to say she will not use either EVER again.

I have 3 experiences of my own that are almost as bad.

I use Apple computers. Over the years I had accumulated 22 keyboard connection cable extender cables. These are basically extension cables giving the user a longer lead connecting the keyboard to the computer. I knew they wouldn't sell quickly unless I provided an incentive. I checked eBay requirements thoroughly before listing to ensure that what I wanted to do met with their Terms and Conditions.

I sold 16 of the cables with no issue by including a free useful item that cost me cents. My feedback score 100%. Then I got a buyer who complained that the item was not as described. I established that there was nothing wrong with the cable, he had taken a dislike to the free item.

The free item is NOT covered under the eBay buyer protection scheme. I had checked this out thoroughly before listing and the free item was worth cents in comparison to the main cable.

But eBay upheld his complaint and found against me. Paypal snatched the funds back from my account leaving my account in a negative balance so I couldn't go and buy anything using my Paypal account either.

Whilst this was going on, I had listed a iPhone4. Twice already I had gone through scams with this phone but come the 3rd listing I believed everything had gone smoothly. I had taken great care to ensure that I had written everything as truthfully as possible. The iPhone had been given to me by Apple as a warranty replacement and I had even asked Apple to put on the receipt that the handset was an unlocked handset: which they did.

My buyer received the handset and I withdrew the funds. 9 days later the buyer sent me en extortion email through the eBay message system. He claimed I had sold him a locked handset and that as a result If I refunded him $60 he would go away. If I didn't, he would leave me negative feedback and report the item to Paypal as an 'item not as described'.

I refused to pay him his $60 and immediately reported him to eBay. eBay took on board the email and cancelled his account. Paypal did not communicate with eBay. Paypal didn't talk to me or investigated any of my statements about an audit trail of Apple receipts substantiating my claim that I had sold an unlocked iPhone. Paypal found for the buyer and snatched a further $675.00 back out of my account.

And then to cap it all.

I had purchased a batch of Kingston memory sticks direct from Kingston. I sold one or two to friends who then reported faults. So I opened every single packet and checked the rest. I even stated on the listing that the packaging had been opened for testing because of a few bad ones.

I sold the very last stick just before Xmas. On the 44th day I received an 'item not as described' dispute claim against me for the last memory stick.

I had sold 50 of these now with no other problems than the couple mentioned and Kingston sent me replacements for the 2 problem ones.

So now I'm sitting here with a 3rd claim against me. eBay find for the buyer and instruct him to send it back.

The stick is returned and there's nothing wrong with it. There's a whole load of music files and pictures all downloaded from the internet. Clearly the buyer had used it and then didn't have a need for it anymore. I appealed to eBay who still found for the buyer and his money was refunded. I certainly couldn't sell the item as a new one which it was originally. So I had to take a hit of the value.

I now have a Paypal account sat with a $800 negative balance.

1. A dispute found against me for an item NOT covered under the eBay Buyer Protection scheme.

2. A dispute found against me for an item that the buyer was trying to extort money from me under false pretences

3. A dispute found against me for an item that the buyer used then sent back.

I received an email from eBay that my seller status had fallen below standard and so they were limiting my account and all funds received would be subject to Paypal 21 days holding.

No matter how much I complained, neither eBay or Paypal were listening or wanting to listen.  I had to put the full $800 back onto my Paypal account in order to use it.

Now the rub. I spent over 20 hours on the phone with eBay and Paypal discussing these issues before they finally agreed that I had been wronged.

I established that both eBay and Paypal use fully automated dispute programmes controlled by computer to decide the outcome of all disputes. It's not until a seller really starts complaining that a real live person gets involved. The automated system is programmed to look for specific words and if a complaining buyer uses any of the preprogrammed words the system automatically finds for the buyer.

The seller can offer to supply all the paperwork you like supporting ther claim. The computer is NOT listening. It's pre-programmed. This is why sellers are **bleep** at both eBay and Paypal. THERE IS NO SELLER PROTECTION BECAUSE IT DOESN'T EXIST.

I eventually had all three cases against me overturned and found in my favour. My seller status returned. My Paypal account credited with the money.

BUT! and it is still a big BUT!

What were Paypal doing with the funds they were holding onto? They don't just leave them in the bank. They use these funds on the money market where they make even more $millions. BUT we don't get to se a cent of that.

I've suffered a load of stress, loss of income, and a slur against me that so easily could have rested there if I hadn't been so pedantic to get my money back.

So Raveinred.

By all means give advice. But do so being in possession of the full facts.

Now think. What an incentive to eBay and Paypal to have buyers complaining. All the $millions that are on hold because of a dispute that eBay and Paypal get to use.

It's sellers money and either way, sellers should be paid the interest earned by Paypal. Not Paypal shareholders.

[martinpittaway]

And just to confirm that everything is automated, it includes this forum site. I used 2 words that are not so obscene.

In the context of do it yourself I used a word that is the act of having the picture **bleep**ed to the wall and Paypal **bleeped** the **bleep**ed word.

The second word used was a slang for urinated

[Raveninred]

It's late here in california - 4:47am, so I appreciate your humor, and yeah, I know about that whole auto-censor thing.

I'll write more to you tomorrow.

Just to let you know - I have NO beef with you, martinpittaway. I see your point on many things. I only hope you can see mine on a few as well.

At any rate, I'll write soon. Thanks for your thoughtful response (duplicated, in case I didn't catch it the first time, right??).

Talk soon & best to you

Raven

[martinpittaway]

Duplication due to proving  automated censorship.

[jradmacher]

Raveninred,

I was reading your post and got so tired of all the rambling I
had to stop. You clearly are not in touch with what PayPal is letting some
sellers and especially buyers get away with.

I had an individual buy an expensive guitar from me, a 2008
Gibson SG 61 reissue in perfect condition. The box was packed just like it was
when it came from the factory but I went ahead and bought a new box to be on
the safe side. I also took pictures of the guitar and had it inspected.

When the box got to the buyer there were holes punched in the
box. The buyer sent me an email claiming the guitar was damaged and described
the details but failed to tell me about the hole that was punched through the
top of the box. He tried to get Gibson to pay for the damage under warranty
instead of getting the Postal Insurance to cover the damage.

In my return email I asked him if it could have been damaged
during shipping and that is when he told me about the damage to the box. He
shouldn't have accepted it at his house, he should have refused it and picked
it up at the Post Office after inspecting it and documenting the damage.

Next he tried to get me to give
him 150.00 dollars to have it repaired. I am not going to do that I bought
insurance to cover any loses. Now here comes PayPal to the rescue. Papal
freezes my money because of a stupid mistake by the buyer. So now I have over a
thousand dollars tied up and he gets to send me back a damaged guitar at no
cost to himself but shipping. Of course in good conscience I have to report
this damage if I re-list it and I will lose hundreds of dollars.

So he bribes me again and says he will split the 150.00 with me
because he really wants to keep the guitar. I am not going to give a crook a
dime so I turned him down again. After he finds out he has to pay for shipping
he says that he will split the difference and I only have to give him 50.00
dollars. I turned him down because if the guitar is damaged then I will file a
dispute and then they will hold his money up until he pays to have it fixed. I
have had my money tied up for over a week now. They gave him ten days to
provide the tracking number 7 days ago and he still hasn't shipped it. He has
three more days and then if he doesn't return it I will finally get my money
back. PayPal should have a policy stating that if a buyer accepts a damaged box
that is insured he should either not sign for it until it is inspected. If a
buyer does accept it he should not be able to file a dispute.

This is a good example of buyers abuse and to be honest as soon
as this is resolved I am going to shut down my PayPal account and find an
alternative.

[Raveninred]

---

@jradmacher wrote:

Raveninred,

I was reading your post and got so tired of all the rambling I
had to stop. You clearly are not in touch with what PayPal is letting some
sellers and especially buyers get away with.

I had an individual buy an expensive guitar from me, a 2008
Gibson SG 61 reissue in perfect condition. The box was packed just like it was
when it came from the factory but I went ahead and bought a new box to be on
the safe side. I also took pictures of the guitar and had it inspected.

When the box got to the buyer there were holes punched in the
box. The buyer sent me an email claiming the guitar was damaged and described
the details but failed to tell me about the hole that was punched through the
top of the box. He tried to get Gibson to pay for the damage under warranty
instead of getting the Postal Insurance to cover the damage.

In my return email I asked him if it could have been damaged
during shipping and that is when he told me about the damage to the box. He
shouldn't have accepted it at his house, he should have refused it and picked
it up at the Post Office after inspecting it and documenting the damage.

Next he tried to get me to give
him 150.00 dollars to have it repaired. I am not going to do that I bought
insurance to cover any loses. Now here comes PayPal to the rescue. Papal
freezes my money because of a stupid mistake by the buyer. So now I have over a
thousand dollars tied up and he gets to send me back a damaged guitar at no
cost to himself but shipping. Of course in good conscience I have to report
this damage if I re-list it and I will lose hundreds of dollars.

So he bribes me again and says he will split the 150.00 with me
because he really wants to keep the guitar. I am not going to give a crook a
dime so I turned him down again. After he finds out he has to pay for shipping
he says that he will split the difference and I only have to give him 50.00
dollars. I turned him down because if the guitar is damaged then I will file a
dispute and then they will hold his money up until he pays to have it fixed. I
have had my money tied up for over a week now. They gave him ten days to
provide the tracking number 7 days ago and he still hasn't shipped it. He has
three more days and then if he doesn't return it I will finally get my money
back. PayPal should have a policy stating that if a buyer accepts a damaged box
that is insured he should either not sign for it until it is inspected. If a
buyer does accept it he should not be able to file a dispute.

This is a good example of buyers abuse and to be honest as soon
as this is resolved I am going to shut down my PayPal account and find an
alternative.

---

You know, if you don't want to read what I wrote above, that's fine but it was a dialogue about people scamming PayPal.

What happened to you was an automatic dispute - if one partly lodges a complaint, there is an automatic hold on funds. That's an absolute. The best thing is you had all the evidence in the WORLD to back up your claim, including pictures and purchased shipping insurance, which he never took advantage of. The decision would have been resolved in your favor, especially if you had contacted Customer Service using the (NOT E-MAIL SYSTEM - THAT DOESN'T WORK - IT'S AUTOMATED) "Contact Us" button when you sign in to your account, getting a Web Pin and a special Customer Service Phone Number good for one hour (you can generate another if you can't call at that particular time) but you're calling right into the top tier of customer service who, once you've identified it's your account, has access to see the problem, you can present your issue, ask them if you need to e-mail or fax them your paper-trail of his blackmail, our photos, your Federal proof of his receipt of item, his continued blackmail, and wham-bam - you're in the clear with your money back and your account cleared.

You can think I'm a "meanie" all you want, but I did know what I was talking about above.

Hope this advice helps you out a little and you get some recompense.

Best of luck.

Raven