momassager.com scam site & counterfeit products

[elevin11]

Here's the scam from momassager.com: their site shows genuine Hyperice/Hypervolt massage guns, which retail for >$300, listed for ~50% savings. After ordering (with the only option to pay through PayPal), they slowly ship out an item. ~20 days later, I receive a blatantly inauthentic and knockoff massage gun, as seen here:

The website return policy says buyer is responsible for return shipping, but since these items come from China the return shipping is prohibitively expensive. I've offered to ship it back if they pay the return shipping, but they won't budge. Paypal resolution bots side with the seller in this instance, and I have to jump through multiple hoops to get in touch with a representative that will override that decision.

This resembles the scam run by vemwear.com and many others I've read about, except they were simply forging UPS delivery reports so it seemed like an item was delivered when it really wasn't.

I'm still waiting for Paypal support to ameliorate this issue aka refund my money and block this seller. I just wish they took a more proactive stance to thwart these scam sellers, as it hurts their customers and erodes trust in their platform.

[kernowlass · Accepted solution]

@elevin11 

In the event of a dispute you need to bear in mind possible return trackable costs before you buy from that seller / item / country because....

Paypal state this >>
PayPal is not obliged to reimburse you for any costs that you incur to comply with any of PayPal’s requests for cooperation for the purpose of resolving the problem (including, without limitation, costs that you incur to return a SNAD item to the Payment Recipient or another party as PayPal requests), although sometimes it may reimburse these costs.

Although they will compensate you for some of the cost if you have activated this at some point before you made that transaction.
https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/FAQ3544

You also have the option to do a chargeback via your card issuer instead of a Paypal dispute if you funded your Paypal payment via a credit card.

[Ginger_Spice]

I just received the same Facial Gun (from massageris.com in China), actually 3 of them because I bought them as gifts for my kids, arrrgghhh !!!!  I am in the process of submitting a dispute but am getting the same response from the seller and from PayPal to return it first, but I keep saying I don't trust them (and it costs too much).  Where are you in the process and have you had any luck?

[elevin11]

Sorry to hear! PayPal was no help at all, despite countless conversations with them. To their credit, they gave me a $100 credit, though it kinda felt like hush money. It did not make me whole, but got me close, and after a few more attempts I realized I wouldn't get the rest of my money from them. I opened a dispute with my credit card and they refunded me the money (for the moment at least).

Given I saw no complaints previously, I gave Paypal a little benefit of the doubt that I was the first person that flagged this scammy seller. But now that I had, and they're still allowing them to defraud PayPal customers, I'd certainly hold them more accountable if I were you (especially if you can't get $ back from your credit card company).

Good luck!

[Ginger_Spice]

Thanks for the quick response!  I hate feeling like a chump and being taken advantage of.  My PayPal is linked to my bank rather than my credit card, so I suspect I'll get less of a response from them, but I figured it was more appropriate to first deal directly with the seller (no luck), then with PayPal (in process but very frustrating), and then with my back.  I tried emailing directly with the seller but they're not budging on requiring me to send it back first, and I fear that the time and money spent packaging it, with little trust that they'll even refund afterwards, might not be worth it.  May I ask - what was our process o communicating with PayPal?  Did you ever find a phone number and a real person to talk to?  Did you ever escalate the dispute to a claim?  I can't even find the buttons to do that!  

[elevin11]

I got an estimate for the return shipping to China and it was about the same price as the item/refund. That's the scam - they ship out from California so it's cheap, and provide return address in China as they know you won't ship it back because it doesn't make financial sense to. I told PayPal they have to change their policy that doesn't allow sellers to do that. Clearly, they haven't listened. 😞

All my conversations with PayPal were through their Chat support. I opened a dispute/claim, and when that was ultimately rejected, I started a chat with them. The responses aren't immediate - I'd get notified by email when one came through, then get back to them immediately or later on, and receive a response in real time or later.

[kernowlass]

@elevin11 

@Ginger_Spice 

Paypal would not be able to check every seller / merchant in over 200 countries worldwide that adds paypal to their website to accept payments.
So they give you 'some' buyer protection but the onus is on you to risk assess your transactions.

They do stop bad companies from using Paypal when enough claims start rolling in.
However as they are in China (mostly) then its easy for them to just start over with a new name, so stopping them does not really do anything. Sometimes its better to not ban them so buyers soon spread the word and are warned against buying from them?

The BEST thing is to not buy from them in the first place, to recognise them -

1. No return address on the returns policy. The site will look as if its in your country (where they despatch goods from) but they will ask for returns to go back to China (returns depot) at a shipping cost often more than the item is worth.
2. No contact telephone number. if you click on contact the most you will get is webmail or an email address.
3. Rarely company address information.
4. Great pictures of items at bargain prices that turn out to be tat.
5. Fake reviews.
6. Google and you can often see previous company names as they change them once enough claims roll in and Paypal stop them using their services and start over.

[elevin11]

PayPal purports to be a trusted and secure platform, but their claimed "purchase protections" provide a false sense of security. Nowhere on the Purchase Protection page is there any mention of the onus on sellers to look out for red flags (like those you listed) that will potentially and essentially invalidate their protection. Sure, buyers can go deep into the User Agreement and see that they are responsible for return shipping, but nobody is doing that before a purchase. 

If this was a big enough problem, and PayPal was footing the bill for these scams, they would surely find a way to minimize that risk for themselves and their customers.

Here's one such idea: all merchants (or at least those based in China and countries where these types of scams originate) have to register the return shipping address for goods. When a user in the US proceeds to checkout, they are shown this and asked to confirm that they still want to proceed. I realize it's not simple, and there are downsides for PayPal as well, but on the whole it may be better for their brand and reputation.

Until I see them making an effort to address the scammers on their site, I will hesitate before using any PayPal service, always looking for an alternative, and suggest others do the same.

[Ginger_Spice]

@elevin11 

@kernowlass

I received the same scam "Fascial Gun" from massageris.com when I ordered the Hypervolt.  DO NOT buy from this website (but as noted, they might just keep changing their URL).  After being unsuccessful (no surprise) trying to deal with the seller directly, I posted a Resolution Center Dispute to PayPal (note that your text in the Dispute is shared with the seller), and initially just got the standard response from the seller - return the product first for a 100% refund (which would cost too much to mail to China and I also didn't trust them).  I then used Messaging through their Facebook page and felt like I was talking to a real person who was giving me process advice, although they weren't the one to resolve things (https://www.facebook.com/PayPal).  Per their advice, I then used the more private PayPal Messenger to refer to the case # and explain that this was a fraudulent company who sold a deceitful product, it was not a normal return.  I got a phone call from PayPal later than day (which I almost didn't pick up since I get so many solicitor calls on my cell - so if you are doing this, watch your phone and pick up!).  The put me on hold (not too long) while they checked, saw there was a trend of complaints with the company, gave me a full refund (without requiring a return), and said they were going to flag the company.   If it's a new URL and there's not a trend, I don't know if PayPal will treat you the same way.  Lessons learned - be more careful and try to avoid scam companies to begin with (if it's too good to be true, it probably is);  if ripped off, don't spend as much time as I did going back and forth with the seller and file directly with PayPal (especially since "trends matter");  use PayPal Messenger after you file a Dispute since it's more private;  having a firm but respectful conversation with a real person at PayPal might be much more effective than the online dialogues.  That said, given the pandemic, it seems difficult to try to reach PalPal directly by phone.  In a very old Community message I saw this phone number but it might not be working no[Removed. Phone #s not permitted] 4am-10pm PST.  The phone number customer service called me back from was&nbs[Removed. Phone #s not permitted](but that might just be for outgoing, not incoming calls).  

[gizmoze]

vrbodymassage dot shop is another site with exactly the same look and I fell for the scam. Looks like these sellers just keep changing site domains and defrauding people. Now I blame myself for now doing due diligence and buying from reliable sources.