PayPal Buyer Protection and Fraud

[garycroft]

I bought a Yoda toy for my daughter in April. I did not realise this was beibg shipped from China, it was marketed as an official Hasbro toy with lots of features e.g. sound effects and movement. The seller looked proffesional and I took reassurance on PayPal buyer protection. After 2 months (and chasing) an item did arrive although it was more like a garden gnome, a cheap counterfeit and not as described. I challenged the seller and at first they said I ordered the wrong product (I showed evidence that I did not) and then I noticed a user comments section on their site showibg they were scamming people from all over tge world by sending out cheap non-functional counterfeits. I escalated this to PayPal and the seller offered a partial refund ($7.50 of $40) which I refused, they then offered full refund and attached shipping information. I raised this fraud with PayPal and explained I would not throw away money sending a counterfeit item back to China - they they found in sellers favour and closed the case. I appealed this and have been stonewalled by numerous customer service representatives for over a month - who take 12 hours plus to respond and ignore what you state. They did ask me to raise a case with the Police Action Fraud and I provided a case reference but even now they won't take action, telling me to complain to my bank. I am escalating this to the financial ombudsmam and they will not provide a dealock letter despite asking repeatedly, and the ombudsman states that they will only take the case after 8 weeks elapses on that basis - by that point the scammers will be long gone. Paypal unders its own buyer protection clsims to protect victims of fraud however the reality is it does not. I have repeatedly asked that they call me (no phones during Covid) but have not received a call. Having used PayPal for nearly 20 years I am thoroughly disgusted how I have been treated and will be actively embracing online shopping that uses credit card as i think this protection is far stronger. Paypal is complicit in profiting from these scams by its ineffectiveness even when presented with clear evidence of fraud - I also think if they looked at this particular merchant they would see a pattern of fraudulebt activity that I am not privy too.

[kernowlass]

@garycroft 

Chinese Web Sites or on Facebook easy to spot (once you know the below signs) so buyer beware.

1. No return address on the returns policy............thats because the site will look as if its in your country (where they despatch goods from) BUT they will ask for returns to go back to China (returns depot) at a shipping cost nearly always more than the item is worth.
2. No contact telephone number............if you click on contact the most you will get is webmail or an email address.
3. No company address information.
4. Great looking items at bargain prices that turn out to be tat.

In the event of a dispute you need to bear in mind possible return trackable costs before you buy from that seller / item / country because....

Paypal state this >>
PayPal is not obliged to reimburse you for any costs that you incur to comply with any of PayPal’s requests for cooperation for the purpose of resolving the problem (including, without limitation, costs that you incur to return a SNAD item to the Payment Recipient or another party as PayPal requests), although sometimes it may reimburse these costs.

Although they will compensate you for some of the cost if you have activated this at some point before you made that transaction.
https://www.paypal.com/us/smarthelp/article/FAQ3544

You also have the option to do a chargeback via your card issuer instead of a Paypal dispute if you funded your Paypal payment via a credit card.

[garycroft]

Thanks, I've been using PayPal for nearly 20 years and also work in cyber security - this is the first time I've been scammed and the sites are getting better - this particular merchant uses Shopify to create a very realistic ecommerce website. I realise that returns can sometimes be on the Buyer however PayPal disregards the UK Consumer Act or the simple fact that the goods are counterfeit - their most recent take is that returning counterfeit goods isn't a crime! The buyer protection is clear that ot intends to protect victims of fraud however in paypsls view a consumer must continue to engage with a scammer selling counterfeit goods just to try and gain the Buyer Protection they are advertising. Whst is worse of this seller is sending out fake toys which could even have safety issues they are prepared to take their cut even when following up via Police Action Fraud and continue to work with sellers who are involved in sophisticated scsms rather than shutting off there Paypal accounts and protecting consumers. I am shocked by the lack of customer support from PayPal and certainly will be reducing my custom with them as much as possible.

[kernowlass]

@garycroft 

Sadly selling fake goods is allowed in China and UK law does not apply in China.

[garycroft]

Firstly PayPal are processing the transaction from outside China and they make T&C's for buyer protection including protection from Fraud. Secondly it is PayPal who are asking me to return the item from the UK, and here tge Consumer Act prevails and that says I don't have to pay to return things not as described. Additionally its not just counterfeit its a completely different item than the seller advertises, no speach, mechanism or clothing on the toy - this evidence provided to PayPal. PayPal actually agree its Fraud and Counterfeit yet don't refund under Buyer Protection without return postage - tgis is what the scammers are taking advantage of - i have "me too" on this post after only 1 day and this problem is rife and PayPal are aiding this organised crime and profiting from it. No responsible financial services organisation should be able to sit idle and do this, we as consumers need to stop using PayPal i think.

[kernowlass]

@garycroft 

Paypal is doing exactly what they say they will do in their user agreement which has been LEGALLY APPROVED in every country that it operates.

Paypal provides 'some' buyer protection but the onus is on you to risk assess your own transactions.

Yes paypal are telling you to return the item as they clearly state that in their buyer protection policy that i posted above.

There are terms and conditions that have to be met as well as limitations to their protection, they can't protect everyone and everything. They're not obliged to and if they do it will be at their sole discretion. PayPal Buyer Protection is not a service or product guarantee. 

[garycroft]

If like most people you read PayPal's buyer protection at face value without being some sort of contract guru then they clearly are not living uo to their own hype. Firstly on the buyer protection page it states "doesnt match the sellers description we can reimburse you" - clearly that if a promise hinging on the use of the word "can" rather than "will" Furtherore it goes on to give examples- the last two around missing major parts (that the seller didnt disclose), and you bought an authentic brand but got a knock off instead - this is wording straight from their own website - and any lay person i.e. someone without legal training would agree, and if a person were to challenge PayPal on this basis down a legal route then this would potentially hinge on how upfront they are being about the caveats to their protections. Where is your evidence PayPal buyer protection terms have been legally approved in all countries they operate - do you have some inside knowledge I am not privy to. What I do know as a more than average consumer is when something smells bad or not - and this stinks. Suggesting that buyers should risk **bleep** a merchant site is one thing, and in 20 years using Paypal this is a first on me - users run the risk regardless of how well they risk **bleep** - what I did not count on is Paypal willingly working with scam sellers even when confronted with evidence.

[garycroft]

* risk assess

[kernowlass]

@garycroft 

Really? LOL

Paypals user agreement has to be legally approved before they can operate in each country !!!

Secondly paypals states.......

PayPal Buyer Protection is neither a product warranty nor a service warranty. No guarantees are given.

I suggest you actually take the time to READ the short section on buyer protection and then risk assess your own transactions.

Yes i got ripped off once on a purchase, I realised the mistake I made and learnt from it. I did not expect paypal to bail me out for my own error even though I 'may' have had buyer protection. 

[garycroft]

I have read the site here: https://www.paypal.com/uk/webapps/mpp/paypal-safety-and-security If paypal have limitations they need to make their exclusions as clear as their advertising of the benefits or lack of. Are you some kind of PayPal troll, I'd love to hear other peoples opinions on this matter because i think youll find you're in the minority of public opinion. You should go and work for paypal, you'd fit right in with their customer service who have 15 different ways of fobbing you off.