How to appeal as a buyer a blatantly wrong claim decision made by Paypal?

[bhatnagarrohan]

1) I do not see the appeal option as a buyer. Is there any option for the buyer to appeal, and if so how?

2) The evidence I provided in the claim had an email from the seller claiming responsibility and offering a full refund. But then later did not issue this refund. 

3) Paypal closed my clain ruling against me just because the seller pasted a tracking number as a response.

Paypal seems to have a terrbile claim resolution process where they do not even spend time familiarizing themselves with the case or the provided evidence. A tracking number alone from a seller does not speak to what was delivered or when it was delivered vs committed or where it was supposed to be delivered. 

Buyer protection on Paypal really seems like a joke and I think the community needs to either say something to drive change and acknowledge that if you are using Paypal you are at risk of getting nothing and losing everything you paid for, no matter how admittedly at fault the seller may be. 

[sharpiemarker]

@bhatnagarrohan 

Tracking numbers as protection from Item Not Received claims is one of the very few protections that sellers have, its' ironclad and buyers have to provide convincing evidence (official documents from couriers, law enforcement reports) of seller abuse of the seller protection program and maybe multiple attempts with a higher level rep perhaps to get it overturned or offer a courtesy refund out of PayPal's pocket to you.

Can't appeal by just disagreeing with the decision, new and convincing evidence must be submitted, like any court case.

PayPal don't go by emails, screenshots, photos as they can be faked, as this is the internet and with plenty of technology/software to do so (ie photoshop or online graphic editing apps). This ain't Judge Judy or Judge Milian where you can present such evidence right from a mobile device. lol

That said, if you have cause to believe that the tracking number is fake there are things you can do:

A) File a police report with your local PD for theft or fraud:

 - If PD doesn't want to bother, INSIST and proclaim it is theft (or fraud), which both are punishable offenses.

 - INSIST that your local LE forward a copy of the police report to the local PD in the buyer's location.

B) File a theft or fraud report with courier (UPS, FedEx, or USPS Postal Inspector)

 - Get in writing official documentation of the courier's findings from their fraud dept.

 - USPS: Get GPS delivery coordinates, address label image or, an INTRANET REPORT should tracking #/info be expunged due to being recycled by USPS and file mail fraud with US Postal Inspector.

(Have to determine if the seller did something sketchy like send an empty envelope or whatever to an address nearby or not but if the item was just stolen from your porch then the seller is not responsible and PayPal may not rule in your favor.)

C) File a report with ic3.gov.

D) Collect up all of these reports/info, pdf them and upload to appeal case in resolution center OR contact customer service to reopen the same case.

To contact customer service for assistance:

Log on, click HELP on top menu, scroll down to click CONTACT US, and then scroll down to click CALL US or other contact options.

Call early, during business hours, west coast time to try to get a US rep. 

Or contact via social media:

Facebook (US): https://www.facebook.com/paypal

Twitter (US): @AskPayPal 

If that doesn't help, you can open a case with bbb.org under PayPal San Jose CA to get PayPal Office of Executive Escalations to review your case.

Or if you paid with credit card, you may dispute the transaction with them.

I do not know the specifics of your case so you'll need to work the advice to your advantage to tip the scales and get decision overturned or PayPal to refund you out of their pocket.

[bhatnagarrohan]

@sharpiemarker 

Thank you for the detailed response and the time you spent putting it together. I do appreciate the additional perspective you have provided in terms of seller-provided tracking numbers being ironclad to PayPal, as well as all the potential fraud possibilities with "normal" buyer available evidence. 

However, it seems to me that this stance (if true for Paypal) is a huge slap in the face of the buyer protection program. And for now, I'd like to leave aside the inability of a buyer to appeal a closed decided case within 10 days - that privilege is only available to the seller, which is unfair just at the outset. In other words, I can't even appeal. So why do feel I this way? Well...

Let's assume I'm a dubious seller in a dispute claim against a buyer. The buyer has several normal documented pieces of evidence good enough for court - emails, phone call recordings, pictures, etc - even including me (the seller) admitting culpability in writing. All I need to do to influence the claim decision in my favor with Paypal is ship out a box of rocks or a wildly different product or a significantly inferior product, and ensure the tracking number says delivered. Because that delivery making it to the buyer's doorstep, and tracking reflecting that, is all I need to keep the entire payment made by the buyer. 

You listed every piece of evidence a buyer can provide as subject to fraud, but a seller can ship whatever and as long as it's tracked and delivered that is ironclad??? Why not say this upfront in the buyer protection program rules? I'm willing to wager that if that stance becomes public, several normal buyers are going to just refuse to use Paypal at all at that point because the protection they thought they had with Paypal really does not exist and is biased against them, to begin with. 

Why not instead ask for buyer evidence (or any evidence for that matter) being notarized? or an affidavit validating its authenticity to be submitted along with evidence? But instead, a normal buyer that clearly did not get what they paid for - no buyer remorse or anything involved - and has their claim unfairly denied due to this has no other option but to go to the police or courier to file theft and fraud? or goto ic3 or BBB? or rely on their credit card for fraud protection? WOW

Just as a side note, I called Paypal customer service. Waited over 40 mins on the phone and then finally spoke to someone named John. I walked him through the evidence that I had already attached as part of the case including seller admitting culpability in and offering a refund in writing but then not following through. I also told him I could not appeal as the button/link is not available and I'm on day 1 of the decision. John almost felt bad for me, agreed with me and thought the decision was questionable. He eventually went to his back office and came back with the same - but the seller has provided a tracking number sir, it was delivered to your address and so we can not do anything, our decisions are final. Want to know another interesting facet of my case? There is another claim that Paypal decided in my favor where the seller did not respond by the deadline - hence the case being awarded in my favor. The current couple cases that Paypal has decided against me (which I want to appeal but can't) are in fact directly related to the case they decided in my favor (also clearly documented in the evidence I had attached)- LOL - and the only reason for the denial is - the seller has provided a tracking number. I wonder what would have happened if the seller spent 5 seconds pasting the same tracking number into that first case decided in my favor. Actually I do not wonder. I know.  It would also have been denied on the same grounds, no matter what evidence. 

[sharpiemarker]

@bhatnagarrohan 

Actually, PayPal does say in the purchase protection program terms that even if tracking says "delivered" and you didn't receive it, PayPal may still rule against you.

And PayPal does say in the seller protection terms that to be covered under the program for Item Not Received claims that you'll need a tracking number aka proof of delivery. Then it got out that only the city, state, zip code must match and so scammers seller/buyers ship to nearby street address, which you can get evidence of, which will be explained later.

It's all in the user agreement, people just got to read it and not get used to having everything up front in their face because that is not always possible to display all the negative stuff up front which would freak out customers. PayPal displays links to both seller and buyer protection in the transaction details for each party. You an also do a search in the Help page for the faqs all about claims and disputes. On the PayPal home page: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/home you can find out about purchase protection or just do a web search for "PayPal buyer protection" or "purchase protection". The info is at our fingertips. Don't know how in your face PayPal has to put it.

Even when PayPal put big o' buttons with send as goods and services to get purchase protection vs sending to a friend, people still get it wrong for whatever reason. Just last week PayPal had this layout in their app with the big o' window that would slide out saying "goods and services with purchase protection" (it was even pre-selected) OR "send to someone you trust", in big buttons. Then yesterday or the day before, I updated the apps and they change it back to a small text under the amount field. lol

I dunno. lol 

I've read cases that eBay would take in to the account the official documentation/evidence from police/ic3.gov, from the couriers to reverse a decision or refund customer out of pocket.

With PayPal you'll have to persevere and escalate to a different dept such at the Executive Escalations or take the seller to court. 

PayPal is third party, they were not there when the transaction went down and so they have to make a judgement call for one side and the other side must refute it, yes. PayPal may ask for police reports and what not, yes.

It's just that there's starting to be scams where the seller or the buyer would ship/return en empty envelope or whatever back to your or to a different street address and so evidence is needed from the couriers to show that indeed this happened so the USPS has GPS delivery coordinates and you can look up the coordinates in google maps to determine this and then go for the evidence needed. USPS also have technology to take image of the address label, all this can be looked up for you at the PO. Now for the private couriers, they have fraud debts but I don't know if they are that detailed but they can look stuff up.

There are plenty of sellers who will supply screen shots and photos too if the buyer is scamming and vice versa, particularly for digital goods, the sellers get a real cleaning as there is no proof of delivery like it is with physical goods, in fact digital goods and services for the US are not even covered!

If you read both protection programs there are limitations for both.

Each case has it's own circumstances that come together to tip the scales one way or the other or reverse it.

So how would the screenshots, photos, and emails be notarized that PayPal would accept? Because some physical notary says so? Is there even such a thing? And done quickly and through people's devices? Privacy issues.

The rep said the item was delivered to your address...so what was the issue, that the seller made a mistake? Shipped a wrong item, fake item? You never explained. If seller sent you something applicable to not as described then you must change the case to Significantly not as described and return it for refund if PayPal rules in your favor.

Otherwise, its a situation now where you have to work it out with the seller.

The other case was ruled in your favor because the seller didn't respond. Responding in a timely manner is also a requirement for retaining protection (buyer or seller).

All this is in the protection program terms.

All the decisions made by PayPal that you are disagreeing with are made according to policy by the circumstances of each case. Seller provided tracking number, and not enough sufficient evidence to refute it, email is hearsay and could be faked? Buyer loses. Next. 

Seller didn't reply, need to reply to maintain protection? Seller lose. Next. And that's how it goes.

If the seller did reply on time with tracking number, they would the case. If you do not want to do the work to really win your case, then it probably doesn't matter to you as much because that's what it takes. 

Sellers are not protected from Significantly Not As Described, and buyers abuse that and return stuff months later. Overall both sides get it to the back end in various ways to be honest.

Case in point (people advise setting police reports, etc, be it buyer or seller, just that in this case its a seller):

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Shipping-Returns/Paypal-Scam-still-not-fixed-Paypal-does-not-believe-i...

[Bluewillz]

I would like to echo your sentiments and frustration on this matter too!

I recently purchased a product online using PayPal on the 13th of OCT and chose the VIP express delivery option that obviously incurred a premium shipping charge which I was OK about in order to get it delivered in time before Halloween 0 being a costume. The express option explicated stated a delivery time within 12 days. I didn’t get the good until 7th Nov! Putting aside the fact that the product did not even look remotely like that advertised, I was more annoyed that it didn’t arrive within the specified timeframe that I paid for and really even though it did eventually arrive, the product is really of no use to me now given that the product is specific to Halloween! I used the online PayPal resolution service to escalate this to a claim given that the seller just ignored 2 of me emails. Despite the resolution center stating a 10 day resolution period, it took a month to be resolved and in the end my claim was denied because the seller provided the golden ticket - a tracking number! Somehow this completely ignores the fact that the product was not as advertised (this being the option of express delivery that incurred an additional charge !). I’m not sure how PayPal can get away with their motto of buyer protection - its more of protecting the seller!