Case closed, returned & refunded, seller re-sends item.

mk4321
Contributor
Contributor

I am confused about what to do after a dispute that ended with some hostility. I want to make sure I do the right thing, even when the seller has acted in ways that I think are inappropriate. I will try to give the relevant details and skip the irrelevant or personally-identifying stuff. Buckle up, because this is a long one. (see below for the TL-DR version)

 

I ordered an item on Ebay, and it was a preorder so I waited a while. I knew it was possibly going to go past the 30-day mark for preorders on Ebay. Plenty of sellers skirt this deadline with preorders. I buy prerelease music and comic books all the time, and it's never an issue if they go to 40-45 days. However, after a few emails and questions, it turned out to be much later than 30 days -- but well within the 180-day protection window. There were delays on the item from the manufacturer, and I didn't mind, and when it was available, the seller gave me a hard confirmation of the date well in advance. I knew exactly when he intended to deliver, and he told me not to worry, he's a professional reseller (although by all accounts, totally unauthorized -- just a guy buying at retail and reselling at a markup).

 

This was for a limited release item, very expensive and selling out fast. This was, at the time, the only place I could get it. I don't want to blow the privacy, so call it an expensive vinyl DVD/LP set with digital download codes for exclusive mp3s and video content (one-time use download codes). So when I heard nothing for a week after the expected delivery date (and several inquiries), the seller finally told me not to worry, it was in the mail. A few days passed, and then tracking was posted -- label generated on that day. Then a full week later, the label is generated and nothing else. It wasn't in the hands of USPS after a full week.

 

I emailed him a few times that week, no reply, so I felt like after a lengthy delay from the 30-day Ebay window, then a week of no contact past the explicit hard delivery date, then apologies but yet another week of an "awaiting shipment" tracking number, I filed an "Item Not Received" dispute. I also got lucky and managed to find a copy at a local retailer that hadn't sold out (more likely, they had some preorders that were canceled that they put up for sale). I bought it assuming that this INR would be a routine instance of "sorry I never sent the item, here is your refund." I didn't want to miss out on the last chance to get the LPs while waiting for a guy who seemed to be flaking out on the sale.

 

The INR got his attention, and I got several short, apologetic emails saying it was out of his hands, he claims he dropped it off at [some place that makes no sense, and is neither a USPS outlet nor an authorized facility like a UPS Store, I won't say what it is for his privacy]. I said it was too late, and that I was dissatisfied with the failure to deliver on time. I had already bought a replacement, and I wanted to just cancel the transaction.

 

 

But the item did end up in the mail. Maybe his strange drop-off location really does take 7-10 days to put items in the mail. Maybe he lied. But when it showed up, it had some signs of wear and tear that were suspicious -- including potentially access to the digital download part of the item, which is one-time use. It was also well beyond the promised date, I had purchased a replacement that wasn't damaged, and so he offered to take it back. I confirmed very explicitly that he said I could return it for a full refund. He agreed explicitly and totally with that.

 

Then he asked me to close the dispute, but the INR closed automatically since the tracking number ended up being valid once the item got into the mail. I asked him to initiate a refund in Paypal, and he said he couldn't figure it out. I was stupid enough to assume he was being honest (and maybe he was), but I immediately sent it back, didn't touch it, just took photos, slapped a new label on it, and sent it out. I had tracking and insurance, I know that if I have tracking, I can prove it was returned -- and I have his written correspondence accepting the return -- so Paypal will have my back (and yes, spoiler alert, they do).

 

When tracking said it arrived, I emailed and he replied to confirm it was received and in good condition, no damage or other issue. I thought it all set: he agreed to a full refund, I shipped it back tracked and insured, and he got it safe and sound. But he said he couldn't figure out how to set up the return through Paypal, so I needed him to refund it manually.

 

But then he told me he was angry at me for filing a dispute (what else was I supposed to do when the item is two weeks late and he wasn't replying to my emails?). So angry that he decided he was going to keep the item AND the money. I told him that he couldn't do that, appealed the case, and then he said he would initiate a refund if I removed negative feedback, closed the dispute / appeal, and apologized to him. (Pretty bold, isn't he?) He also said that, regardless of his acceptance of the return, he does not allow returns so I can't expect a refund. When I told him I wouldn't cooperate with those demands, he told me he would indeed keep my $500 and the LP set, and he would ignore any email.

 

I was pretty stunned, but I tried to do the right thing and just appeal the dispute. But it was no longer an INR. Fortuantely, Paypal phone support helped process the appeal and change the dispute to "refund credit missing" -- their lingo for an item that is returned but not credited. Note that I paid with Paypal Credit, so there's no option to chargeback anything. This is my chargeback, I guess. So I'm dealing with their support reps, not regular Paypal.

 

And Paypal is good about this. He explicitly accepted a return in an official Ebay message / email, easy to verify, and I provided tracking. It took about a week to reverse the charge. Case closed, appeal accepted, I got my refund. I was very happy to see Paypal resolve a weird situation. (I'm honestly also wondering, is this not the type of behavior that gets a business account permanently limited or closed?)

 

Weeks pass, and then the item shows up. Again. On my doorstep, sent as if I had just reordered it from him. Out of the blue, unsolicited, unwanted. I contacted Paypal twice (and have a third email request pending, asking for another confirmation, because I really want to be sure). They say the following: (1) his appeal will be denied, because he accepted a return and it has been refunded, there's nothing more to do; (2) the re-sending of an item does not somehow reverse the decision and I cannot be charged or billed for this item, nor can a refund be un-refunded for this or any other reason; and (3) this shipment is unsolicited and outside the bounds of this transaction, and I am not required to acknowledge or return it.

 

Are items (1) - (3) above correct? Both replies from Paypal Credit have said so (one by phone, one in writing), but I'm trying to confirm this again by email with them to be sure.

 

And if so, what do I do with the item at this point? It shows even more wear and tear now (he shipped it with no exterior packaging, it looks like it was opened and resealed with packing tape, and it's pretty badly dented and scuffed), and I don't want it. Heck, he could have smashed the contents, boxed it back up, and sent it to me in a fit of anger. 

 

I could send it back with tracking, to be generous with more of my money. I could contact him and ask him what he expects me to do with an unsolicited shipment, but I expect that he will not reply or will be hostile. I could write "REFUSED, RETURN TO SENDER" on it (in fact, in my frustration and haste, I already did, but then I decided to call Paypal first).  But the Paypal reps were pretty clear: I'm not at fault, I have no obligation to return this weird re-shipped item, and I am not obligated to deal with him because this case was already decided.

 

On the other hand, I can see the case is closed but pending appeal. One of the two Paypal reps said very clearly that he can appeal as many times as he wants, but she also said very clearly, on the record, that his appeal would be denied -- there's a clear record of him accepting a return, he can't possibly expect to keep my money, and then anything he sends me after the case was decided is irrelevant.

So maybe the "what do I do?" question is two-part. What am I required to do? Am I obligated to send it back? To pay for it? Would any course of action potentially change the outcome of the case (even if it is closed, pending his appeal)? I don't want to forfeit my money somehow if I do the wrong thing here, but I also have never heard of the seller re-sending this item because he is unhappy with the fact that he had issued a refund (voluntarily or through dispute resolution).

 

And beyond that, the second part of the question, what is the right thing to do? I don't want to spend another $35 to send a heavy, expensive item with insurance and tracking back to him, and I don't know if refusing the shipment will put me at any liability or risk of losing my money, but it certainly seems like the cheapest option -- besides just keeping it. None of the options seem good, although since I already have a copy, I am also considering giving it away to a friend or even a charity.

 

It's been a wild couple months with this dispute, I hope the lengthy story didn't exhaust you and maybe some of the experts here have some idea of what the best next step for me is. Thanks!

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2 REPLIES 2

mk4321
Contributor
Contributor

The "TL DR" version is this:

 

Bought very limited, expensive vinyl record boxed set (physical + digital) from seller. Sold out preorders at all retailers.

 

Seller failed to deliver item on time, went dark for a week after promised delivery date, then left me with an inactive tracking number for another week.

 

I file an INR, and I manage to find it at a retailer (presumably some canceled preorders) and get one in the meantime.

 

Tracking number coincidentally(?) activates right after my INR goes through, and the seller starts communicating again.

 

INR closes automatically, but in the meantime, seller agrees to a return with full refund. The item was also somewhat banged up, so I'm glad I got a pristine copy from a retailer since I would have returned an item this badly damaged as SNAD anyway. He seems very polite and cooperative so I foolishly assume his inability to initiate a proper return is genuine and that he will manually refund, as promised, when he receives it.

 

Seller confirms receipt of returned item and that it is intact. Then he gets mad(?) and tells me he won't refund me unless I remove all negative feedback, close the appeal of the INR, and apologize. He now says he has no return policy, and that I am not entitled to a refund at all. He tells me never to contact him again, in not so polite a phrasing.

 

I call Paypal, or more precisely Paypal Credit. They fix the appeal to be "refund credit missing" and the charge is reversed within days.

 

I assume everything is normal, weeks pass, and then the item shows up at my door -- in even worse shape, shipped without an exterior cardboard box. I don't know why. I had no contact with the seller. The case is closed, although it shows up in the Resolution Center, which I know means it is being appealed.

 

I call and email Paypal Credit, and they repeatedly say very clearly the following: (1) his appeal will be denied, because he accepted a return and it has been refunded, there's nothing more to do; (2) the re-sending of an item does not somehow reverse the decision and I cannot be charged or billed for this item, nor can a refund be un-refunded for this or any other reason; and (3) this shipment is unsolicited and outside the bounds of this transaction, and I am not required to acknowledge or return it.

 

So my question is whether (1) - (3) are correct, and if so, what should I do? Is there something I should do or not do to avoid possibly losing my money at this point? And beyond that, if the verdict is "You could keep your money an the item," what is the ethical thing to do?

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MissDesigns
Contributor
Contributor
I'm just curious what you ever ended up doing on this? I've had a similar situation previously and ended up just marking it, delivery refused return to sender. The rep I had had told me I was in no way required to accept the delivery and to save on return shipping to just mark it that way. I kinda wish, after all the bs this person forced into my life and anxiety levels, that they had mentioned not being required to send it back also. I would've definitely had to SERIOUSLY consider that option. But one good part of it, the marking it that way after the whole previous runaround that was documented in the case, the tracking automatically updated to show it was immediately refused and my hands were clean of it. When they tried telling me they didn't get it all back and so were willing to be nice about it and make a deal with me to make it only A PARTIAL refund. But since the refund was already swiped out of their account by PayPal then they'd appreciate me doing the right upstanding thing and just send them a personal payment for the difference. That way they wouldn't need to file a dispute against me for it and end up causing me problems. Was quite nice to be able to just laugh right in their face and tell them to go ahead and go for it. That if only part of their stuff was returned to them then either a postal worker opened it and took it, or more likely they were lying or just hadn't sent out the entire thing they were supposed to. When they argued the point saying that I was underhanded and trying to steal from them it was quite vindicating to straight up call them scammer and con artist, and how did they plan on convincing anyone they were there honest ones? Figured it would be a he said she said thing thinking that I would also not be able to prove I truly had sent it all back and hoped it would make it a wash I guess. So it was cathartic watching the bubble burst as they got my message showing them the confirmations that I never had possession of the package and had literally just told the postman immediately to return it, refusing it at the very time of delivery. Therefore it was impossible for me to have had any way at all of keeping part of the stuff, despite how badly they wanted to cheat someone, they'd have to deal with it just not being me. And all these people who do seem to set out with some kind of game plan, some set ways they are going to just steal a person's money rather than do the right thing of completing a real sale, they are starting to make me sick. Like they think everyone is just outright idiotic and too stupid to look into a situation, and a bunch of floormats who will just accept any obvious bs and lay down telling them please cheat me and steal my money. Like when it's so glaringly obvious what they are really doing and still decide to be rude and accusatory trying to say it's you that is a cheat and getting all righteous like they believed it. Those are the ones honestly that I get a real kick out of, waiting to see what they will say or do next to try and prove they are right. There will ALWAYS be at least that one in every crowd that refuses to do it right, trying to cheat everyone they can, convinced they are more deserving than anyone else so it doesn't matter. Seems a bit close to too many of the upper ranks and higher classes these days. Well I wish you luck and hope you haven't had the occasion to be stuck dealing with the like again.
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