Next step after Paypal completely screws up claim process

[temp201811162d]

Quick history: I sold a camera on ebay, listed and described as used, with minor signs of scuffs etc, which had no effect on the camera's functionality. My auction included high resolution photos, too. The buyer bought it within hours of my listing it because I listed it cheaper than other sellers. The buyer is a reseller who saw a money-maker.

The buyer filed an ebay dispute, then went to Paypal with a dispute, then escalated it to a claim, saying that the camera was "significantly not as described" (untrue), then that changed to "defective" (untrue), then it changed to "does not function as described" (untrue). None of these are true, and his claim didn't meet a single one of Paypal's requirements for a valid claim. In fact, he met every single Paypal requirement that makes a claim INvalid.

Paypal said they "investigated" the claim, and decided in the buyer's favor, but didn't have a single piece of evidence other than the buyer's false claim. How can an "investigation" happen when one side isn't questioned and no evidence is presented?

Anyway, I got the camera back from the buyer, and took a video of me opening the box and running the camera through its functions, proving that the claim was fraudulent. Paypal doesn't care and won't even look at the video. Then I sent screen shots of various parts of the video, since they won't look at the video itself, and they still don't care - even with photographic proof that the buyer's claim was fraudulent.

It's obvious that nobody investigated anything, and Paypal just took the easy way out and refunded the buyer. What is my recourse?

[temp201811162d]

"Item not as described trumps seller policy !"

That's the point - the item was exactly as described, and if an actual Paypal human would look at my evidence they would see it was a fraudulent claim. What's the point of having a claims process when there's no investigation beyond checking a tracking number?

Oddly enough, this buyer is an ebay reseller and has a "no returns" policy, too.

[DPCreations]

Unfortunately you couldn't PROVE to PayPal that the item was exactly as described when the buyer received. PayPal reviews evidence and submitted unverified statements aren'r much for suporting evidence.

[temp201811162d]

Apparently you missed the part where I said I took a video of me opening the returned package and running the camera through its functions, to prove that it was not "defective" and that it was exactly as described. That's just a little bit more solid than "submitted unverified statements".

[DPCreations]

I read your statements, but submitting unverified video is NOT PROOF; it's just a video you created.  My point is the the seller will not be able to submit verifiable proof because it will only be buyer's viewpoint.  You would need an outside investigator to review before shipping and then also to review at time of receipt by buyer.  That can't happen so PayPal makes a decision based on available information and whichever party PayPal thinks is trustworthy and often with a tendence to rule for buyer when it's a toss-up.

That's jsut part of the internet business with a third party payment service as mediator.

[sharpiemarker]

Where did you take the video?  At the post office in front of willing witnesses?

It doesn't matter if you are someone selling something you don't need.  You are as obligated under the current policy as a business merchant is, one sided as it is.  Lucky you got back the exact working camera you sent.  Some folks got back rocks or empty boxes. There was a time when sellers had the upper hand including those just selling something they don't need and buyers gets stuck with items they don't want, not as described, when they got it or sellers going "tough luck" to the buyers. eBay heard buyers' outcry, flipped the script on the sellers.  Now buyers can return stuff for whatever reason.  I heard they are testing out a new system that is more fairer so we shall see.  It's time to move on, relist the camera again on eBay or some place else.  Hopefully your next buyer is happy to keep the item.

[temp201811162d]

I've calmed down and reluctantly admitted to myself that I'll never get anywhere with Paypal, so I'm pretty much done with this.

I wish Paypal would just drop the whole illusion of having a "claim/dispute investigation" process, when it doesn't really exist beyond checking a tracking number. Oh sure, they sit on a claim for a while so it looks like someone at Paypal is busy "investigating", but it's become clear through various threads on this discussion site that nobody at Paypal really investigates anything. I wish they would drop the charade, drop the phony requirements for a claim, and just tell buyers they can return anything for any reason...because they can. If they don't have a reason, they can just make something up.

I appreciate the feedback.

[Whac-A-Mole]

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@temp201811162d wrote:

I've calmed down and reluctantly admitted to myself that I'll never get anywhere with Paypal, so I'm pretty much done with this.

I wish Paypal would just drop the whole illusion of having a "claim/dispute investigation" process, when it doesn't really exist beyond checking a tracking number. Oh sure, they sit on a claim for a while so it looks like someone at Paypal is busy "investigating", but it's become clear through various threads on this discussion site that nobody at Paypal really investigates anything. I wish they would drop the charade, drop the phony requirements for a claim, and just tell buyers they can return anything for any reason...because they can. If they don't have a reason, they can just make something up.

I appreciate the feedback.

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I agree,unless you appeal,Paypal robot is the one who reviews your case,but there are so many cases to review,they cant hire an army of cutomer service rep to sit and review every dispute.

dont waste your time videoing yourself,selling used item on Ebay has its risks,you are lucky the buyer returns the item ingood order,some sellers are not so lucky.

In retail business,buyers often return items ,thats just the way it works.live with it. 

[Kylie1206]

I feel your pain. I’m going through exactly the same thing right now. A buyer has five months after buying a ring from me put in a claim that’s fraudulent. I’ve provided ample proof to PayPal including an email from the buyer telling me the real reason they want the refund (which was their mistake not mine!) and now I’m £220 down because someone wants to lie. Jokes on them though. I’ve reported them to the police for fraud.

[Marnan2013]

Good Luck

I have been using Paypal for 18 years now and on Ebay for over 20 years with the same account.  I never had a problem until this last Nov.  Ebay has taken away my listing privladges without an explanation.  You can guess all day, who knows.  I did spend several days and had my accountant send in my receipts for every purchased item I listed on Ebay in the last year.  After that happened, then Paypal chimed in.  I had one buyer send back a security system that they paid $200 for saying they had changed their mind.  This was after filing a return claim.  The only problem is that one of the cameras and all of the cables are gone.  Neither Paypal or Ebay will do anything about it.  I'm out the purchase price, the shipping costs, and I have a system I can't resell.  In the same week a package going to Mexico, the same system, the buyer filed a didn't receive claim 18 days after it was shipped.  I had it set up to ship through global shipping.  Somehow, the buyer was able to pay without going through it and paid the US shipping rate.  Called Ebay 3 days in a row and was finally told by a supervisor to go ahead and ship it, if there were any problems, Ebay would be there to help me.  Guess what, the buyer filed a claim with their bank who within a couple of days paid the buyers claim, so Paypal closed the claim and said buyer protection will not cover me because I didn't ship it international priority.  I didn't know that because I always use global express.  It does say that in their terms however.  Paypal told me to call Ebay and actually forwarded me to Ebay.  They won't cover me because it was Paypal that closed the case.  Finally yesterday, I found the Mexican postal service tracking and found it was delivered.  I sent this to Paypal and followed 3 hours later with a phone call.  The first two gentlement told me nothing could be done because the case was closed.  After throwing a huge fit, and starting the paperwork to file a consumer complaint with the Florida Attorney Generals office (I emailed it to Paypal while I was on hold for an hour and 15 minutes), a very nice lady got on the phone and isssued me a refund for my item and the $20 Paypal fee charged to me.  I'm still out $47 in shipping however.  

This was the short version.  I have spent many hours, many emails and many phone calls on it.  The lesson in all of this is neither intity can be trusted to do anything for the seller.  Once you get on the bad list, forget it.  I have gone to other platforms this month for selling.  Bonanza is actually doing quite well.  Started the work to go with Stripe, Square and Pay Simple yesterday.  Avoiding Paypal and Ebay with a long stick.  Be careful my friend.  Oh by the way, this will probably be deleted.  Ebay deleted my posts in the community because I  posted the emails that they had sent me.  It is against the rules to discuss the content of any correspondense in writing or verbal form that you have with Ebay.(fyi)